Weapon Mastery: Rise of the CC controllers. (Thank Devs 2 THUMBS UP!)

More assumptions & opinions? I guess I'll go more into detail on why I know GU31 favors controllers and how that is the dev's goal when they made that change.

Dom does work the same for every role regardless of stance. Each role and powerset performs some kind of control effect. Fact.

However, not all roles can perform them in raids or alerts unless the NPC has low Will Power. If the NPC has high Will Power, you need a high amount of Dominance to control them. Which is the suggested amount or higher, to actually control all the controllable type of NPCs in the instance. Fact.

Stuns, roots, encasements, and levitations all have a base duration. It is 15 seconds. Encasements are different because after a certain amount of hits they can break early. Fact.

Knockdowns, knockbacks, juggles, and all other instant control effects do not have a base duration of 15 seconds. So the change to the Dominance stat does not affect them. They remain the same. Fact.

What is it that Tank control effects do? Knockdowns, knockbacks, and juggles. Ice is the only exception with roots and encasements. A majority of of Tank powers do not produce a primary effect of a stun and do not result in a concluding effect of a stun like Controller powersets. Fact.

Healers & Damagers do not meet suggest amount of Dom in raids and alerts. Again, unless the NPC has low will power, they cannot control them with the 4 buffed effects from GU31. Controllers and Tanks do reach that amount. Tanks also have a pile of dominance for their shields and healing regen depending on the powerset. Same with Controllers.

So given the facts above, who really benefits from GU 31? Whose control effects reach the dom requirement and can stun, root, levitate, and encase (besides Ice)? The answer? Controllers. That is why Controllers benefit from that update. You can say I twisted whatever but the "twisted" reasoning is based on facts.

I didn't read anything else from your post except the last part. The answer to that is idea numero tres.

It isn't just boss battles I'm concerned with. It's also the make up and type of NPCs in the hallways on the way to the boss that should keep the Controller role active in controlling a majority of the time. Our debuffs apply a minimal buff so I want to control and make that the focus. So ideas on that should be added. I suggested recycling what we already have with NPCs in the corridors of the Batcave raids. That I'm sure is easy for the devs to do because all they have to do is change the skins of those NPCs to fit the raid theme and just boost their stats to the new tier level.

The fights sound interesting. But I like more of the fact that you chose to disable specific control effects themselves for the roles. They should make NPCs vulnerable to specific control effects. Tanks cannot stun anyway so it makes sense. Some NPCs should only be able to be stunned and nothing more. It still prioritizes controller control effects, which should be the goal, so a controller can still knockdown/knockback/juggle a NPC the tank can control if needed. Like in an emergency. Ideally the Controllers will leave the NPC the Tank has to focus on alone otherwise they get killed or booted.

But it definitely makes it so that Controllers need to control “stunnable” NPCs because a tank cannot stun at all. Recycling the Manhunters control theme is a good idea except make it so they are only vulnerable to stun control effects. A tank keeps all his control abilities and he can't snatch my "job" away just because he/she wants to take my fun, spam power and play god.

So yea I'll take making it so some NPCs are only vulnerable to specific control effects. A NPC that can only be controlled with a pull won't PO a tank who is looking to round up NPCs physically then have a Controller throw PoT or a debuff/set up a PI and give the NPC immunity. Maybe have that NPC only vulnerable to pulls and a knockdown? Or make it so after a pull it can be knocked down or stunned? A physical pull makes it vulnerable to a stun or knockdown etc.?

Ultimately, I want them to add new mechanics as well as recycle mechanics and themes in the old raid boss fights along with BC hallways. It makes it so the player base knows what to do because they are familiar with the enemies. The fights can be similar instead of the same. This sort of solves the “oh that boss fight was amazing but now we have all this overpowered gear and we can just burn through it” problem.

Recycling NPCs from the old unique raids should be done and it can even be on top of what you suggested for new content. Players will recognize the actions of these NPCs and know what to do and won't struggle and cry about it. Which I guess makes it useful for players climbing the tier latter from t2. They'll just know what to do in t6+ raids since they battled through it in t2.

So much wrong in this thread since my last comment in the early pages. Dark, you good or do I have to chime in too? lol

Yo.
It's fine. I think it's turning around slightly. Only 3 or 4 posters continue to go on with nonsense but whatever. In the end, the readers who have their info gathered know what makes sense, who is telling the truth, and should be able to balance their decision with feelings and logic.

Too blinded by your arrogance to see what a fool you've looked like for the last few pages...

Do you want to know why there are fewer dissenting voices? Because they gave up talking to a wall. That is an excellent idea and I wish I had stopped myself some time ago. Peace.

It's not so much what we'd get in return, I would simply redo all the roles and what they are responsible for. For example, I would give tanks the ability to significantly buff damage for everyone else (so that we are wanted in 4-man instances more often) as well as an AOE shield. I think healers should be the ones who remove debuffs.

I think you guys would be fine if your other debuffs weren't so marginalized. But as it is damage debuffing enemies is not worthwhile and healing debuffs are a factor in new content about once a year. The problem with making those crucial is the skill level of the playerbase. Some people are only able to be controllers before because it was so easy to be an adequate one. But if having to use various debuffs quickly was a big part of the task, the controller role would simply be too hard for a large portion of the playerbase.

Anyways, aside from our own amusement there is sadly very little to be gained from this discussion. I don't think the devs will make such big changes anytime soon. You guys got your controller role "revamp" in the form of WM and the devs are patting themselves on the back about it because of how happy it has made the hordes of bad DPSes of infest this game.

Tanks are not required to CC. They are required to Taunt and hold block or mitigate damage in a power specific manner so that the adds don't one shot the rest of the group that is unable to mitigate that damage. What game are you playing?

Not necessary. Only makes it easier to burn mobs down quicker. Once you taunt, the mobs will move towards the tank anyway.

Useless as a CC move compared to what controllers are able to do.

The tanks don't CC well at all. The only useful thing they can do is pull, which I believe anyone could do with enough dominance and a movement based power.

CCing in this game is only going to be necessary when the adds hit hard enough and are spread out far enough to make it necessary for the controllers to keep them stunned. As long as we are over geared ALL roles can be marginalized.

But to continue to argue the validity of a CONTROLLER not using crowd CONTROLLING moves is ridunculous.

Why not support tanks gaining damage mitigation while doing WM moves? How about asking them to perhaps provide short stuns on bosses if they complete a WM move against a boss? There are things that can be done to keep tanks from turtling the hard content and being excluded from the easier content while making them fun to play. Perhaps it's time to push more for that as a community rather than trying to hold onto a bastardized version of CCing.

I think you may be missing my point. I'm not saying tanks > Trolls for CC. I'm saying that tanks CC is very useful and good tanks make use of it.

Removing CC from tanks would make tanking only about taking damage, which is pretty easily done in all content even when it was new, except for Nexus/Para. So removing CC would make tanking quite boring to me.

As discussed earlier, if they took all the jobs and divied them up better then sure, if tanks got a secondary job to fill in where the CC was removed. But what do you add? Group shields/mitigation? so we cut into healer territory...Do we re-evaluate every role and make major changes to each of them creating DCUO2.0? Because at that point you really can't even call it the same game.

We're talking about major changes 3 years into the game.

Look, I don't play anymore but I could have SWORN DOM increases your shielding/damage mitigation or self heals. Are you sure you play a tank or know what you are doing?

Wait...so when we suggest you give back a mechanic that was ours originally (since beta) because all we did prior to WM was spam defib we are QQers? Our sole necessity was to spam power to other players. Debuffing wasn't necessary and controlling wasn't necessary. That makes us QQers. So now when a tank's duties of CCing, which they weren't good at in the first place is being asked to be reduced because taunting, rounding up mobs, standing there like FRIGGING SUPERMAN somehow isn't enough? Tanks SOLO most of the content now from what I've watched. Are you kidding me? Controllers have one job and it requires pressing one button.

I'm fine with that. It needs to be done. I'll not return until it has. It's just not fun. To be clear, I think the tank has serious issues as a role without this whole CC argument going on. Turtling as a mechanic is ridiculously stupid. The devs know this and have admitted this.

You gotta love it when someone supports your point without even intending to.

How did tanks get the short end of the stick when controllers aren't even needed?

The reality is that WM didn't fix any of the support roles which was my complaint when it was first announced...it's just another DPS centric mechanic that has made trollers go from a mind numbling boring powerset to a totally unnecessary powerset.

Again, I think you're quoting and responding out of context. That was in reference to IF Dark's idea of removing Tank CC happened. Then tanks would be getting the short end of the stick because WM made power batteries not needed.

Tanks aren't needed either yo..........

I just don't think remaking the game is such a good idea 3 years in /shrug. Maybe it is what they need to do but they'd piss off a LOT of people doing so.

Let's step back here.
As an Ice or Fire tank, please list the powers you use to tank only if they are necessary to tank. List the power and their function.

Here, I'll start with my role:
Pot: provides power over time


Your turn.

Yep, so why are you content to let it stay that way? You should be freaking out on the devs that this WM stuff didn't solve squat. I know I was...but there were so few like minded people...

Most were just DPSers worried that things would be too easy.

Ice: Reflection
Fire: Any power + Block.

/shrug that's all you really need to be at the bare minimum, but I hate playing at the bare minimum and I expect options to be able to do more than that.

There, helping out. Looks like an ice tank would lose juggling with Bitter Winds...so still have 3 active functions-pulling/taunting, damage mitigation, group shielding/breakout.

Controllers: power over time (unless group goes with power SC).