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I have not discounted anything. Each person could be debuffed by the exact same counter role debuff located in the movement trees. The main difference between those two teams was that one was a premade team using VC, and the other was a team randomly put together. Further displaying, that a well coordinated team will beat any team not working together, regardless of the role set up. That would mean that the devs are doing a great job ensuring that PvP is no longer cookie cutter and that the best team does truly always win.

As for Yallander showing imbalances, there are other things to take into consideration. For example, he stated that a new player would not be able to see the animation of the debuff and would only know they were debuffed if they recognized the sound. My question to both you and him, is how is that any different than clipping a weapon combo with a power within your power set? How is that any different than clipping multiple powers located within your power set? The answer is, it is not. He is contradicting his past claims about clipping being a advanced mechanic, to now all of sudden being worried for the well being of new players.

Let's also not forget acro is probably the most versatile movement power in combat. No other role can get around in combat like acro. Certain abilities such as the tumbling mod, its ability to escape, etc. all make great in it's own unque way. Speed is really good at kiting, while flight is the most limited and useless within combat. So just because a few moves are different and have different PI mechanics, or can be clipped, does not make one better than the other. Like all power sets, each movement mode has it's ups and downs. Based on the decision you make on which of the 3 to use, you must learn it's weaknesses and plan accordingly.

Also, if you go back and read what I asked Yallander, he never answered my question. Instead he went out into left field.

Clipping a weapon combo was given Indicators because the devs viewed it as a problem. THat's the difference. He's not contradicting anything, he's simply pointing out an inconstancy within the system.

While I am not opposed to what you suggested, I think removing the damage crit caps would make matches too quick. Then on the the hand crit heal cap being removed could potentially make matches drag on. Right now I feel like the devs found their sweet spot. Matches do not last too long, but they aren't over too quickly either. Before the crit caps were put in place, people died extremely quickly on a spike. Part of the reason for the nerf to crits was to prolong the duration of a fight and give someone being spiked a chance to react, while not giving them to much of a chance to fully heal thanks to a lucky crit heal.

I strongly believe once the new season hits and the PvP gear is made vastly stronger than any PvE gear, and the devs limit PvE in PvP, it will make PvP more enjoyable and balanced for everyone participating. I also believe the removal of HT from TDM arenas will greatly speed up those matches, I don't think HT is an issue in objective based matches, and that is why they were left there.

The only thing I disagree with wholeheartedly is your last line. Again, I strongly feel that the debuffs currently are perfect. They do not need to be made anymore severe than they already are. If healers are complaining about spikes now, it will only be made worse if they lose stats, shields, and take increased damage. So with that said, I personally think they should be left as is.

I honestly feel as though we should just wait for this new season to begin and see how it plays out when everyone is in PvP gear, and PvE gear is no longer better than PvP gear. When PvP weapons aren't 20+ DPS points behind PvE weapons. I think the biggest issue that support roles are facing currently is the gear we use to PvP (Punchline/Vengenace) is not designed to take the damage that we can currently dish out thanks to all the PvE junk in the arenas.

When you clip powers, where is that indicator? Again, no weapon, just powers within power sets. When any power set clips powers in order how do new players defend against that? Light and Celestial come to mind, a new player isn't going to know what is being clipped and what isn't. Those two power sets are the obvious examples, but all powers can clip powers into other powers, just not as efficiently for damage purposes as Light and Celestial.

He is contradicting himself, when Tunso was looking to fix front loading damage in clipping, he and a handful of others were against it. While I and a few others were for it to help prevent new players from being burst down. Tunso decided not to fix it since it was a touchy subject. Now all of a sudden he is worried about their well being and wondering how they will survive a few laughable movement powers? Please. That is a contradiction, sir.

I agree with you Brice it would definitely speed it up. however, I think it would be too much potential damage. I know I remember spiking people prior to those caps, do you? It was never pretty for the target of any spike, lol. I think it would hurt more than help, don't you? I mean if healers are complaining about spikes now, imagine what they would be saying then.

Er Giggles, that team wasn't pugged...

I know Sparty and Spider's team wasn't. If the opposing team wasn't a random pugged, you could have fooled me. They were nowhere near as organized as Sparty and Spider's team. Which again proves that skill and coordination will beat any team regardless of the roles used, which again is why the debuffs as they are, is a non issue.

Im sorry but how do you know that the other team wasn't as organized, just wondering?

We have already established that Spider and Sparty's team was using VC. you could tell with the way they were working together, that they were coordinating attacks. The other team, was all over the place. They weren't working together coordinating attacks/spikes, screen blocking, etc. So that tells me either they weren't on VC doing the same, or they just weren't as good as Spider and Sparty's team. Either way skill/coordination>roles/debuffs. It's pretty obvious just by watching that video.

I also want to point out I am not knocking either team, I am just explaining what I, and anyone else can see in the video you posted.

More brainstorming on this point: no one likes being nerfed and everyone likes being buffed. That's why confidence bonuses on your counter role are kinda cool but taking away your ability to shield/heal/give power kinda sucks. So instead of taking away role bonuses or nerfing stats, turn role debuffs into suped up defense debuffs that increase damage by ignoring toughness.

EDIT: Yet more ideas! If debuffs took away toughness, it would be as if the other team had someone wearing pve gear instead of pvp gear. We all know the types that wear full pve in pvp.. they hit hard but are squishy as hell. So squishy that not even 2 dedicated healers can save them from being focus fired. And pretty soon they won't even hit hard with new pvp gear coming and/or stat clamping. I think a change like this in addition to removing crit caps would make arenas a lot more fast paced but still fun.

This makes no sense man. Making it so you get hit harder but can heal with no penalties would create a whole other problem. What's the point of a defense debuff if you could just heal through all the damage thrown your way? It makes no sense. As far as being debuffed, all roles are debuffed and take a hit to their main stats while debuffed. It is severe for all roles across the board.

The only arguable exception is DPS. In which case the devs could just add on to the DPS mechanic of each debuff that already presently exists, and add on the ability to debuff a DPS players damage by 7% and strip their damage modifier, or even prevent it for a few seconds, in addition to the shield stripping we already have.

The role debuffs are fine as is, they are severe but not to the extent that a skilled player could not hold their own while debuffed. What you are asking would make debuffs rather useless against certain roles, especially against healers who can easily spam heals with the abundance of power they have.

Then Voice Chat must be the problem right Giggles? It's clear that the debuffs are extremely imbalanced.

The new breed of noob that is queing on USPC now is just horrible. I don't think half the people who que for legends PVP now know the difference between deathmatches and objective based matches. They seem to not notice the big flashy green technology or nodes in front of them. Please, if you are new to PVP and don't want to bother learning about it, you have no business queing for PVP. There is PVP for people like you and that is where you belong.

HL/Celestial clip powers with powers probably on the lower end of all powersets. It's really only done when buffing for celestial. As opposed to FIre who does it every like 6s with Fiery Weapon. Or anyone using PHase Dodge.

We do clip COMBOS which are WHITE damage counting as PREC based attacks just like WEAPONS.

Just because you see error in certain moves being clipped doesn't mean you'r contradicting yourself when you in general like clipping.

Look at Whirling Dervish/Attract. They were front clippable. Which was very weird, 2 powers in all of DCUO followed these clipping rules, while basically the rest of DCUO followed a general (White damage->detrimental Powers->Beneficial powers) order. Many many players pointed it out, devs responded by adjusting both powers to no longer "break the rules".

lol I just noticed that's a team of 4 dps beating a full healer/troller/tank/dps premade. I'm sure Sparty and Spider are on comms but don't know about Taaka since you see him typing "SUPPLY" and such in group chat.

It is pretty ridiculous when you think about it. I recognize LadyLightning from the forums so I know they're not noobs. They're equally geared since it was on the test server. And yet they lost so badly. I mean it takes a full 6 minutes for anyone on the dps team to die.. with nothing but supply drops and soders for heals and power. This must be a big factor in why they're removing HT from deathmatches.

Again just give me one debuff that will strip all shields in DPS role.

Then we can talk fair.

Until then DPS can choose one buff to debuff healers, one for tanks, one for trollers, but you need 3 to cover all the DPS....

And Accomplices, those heal/power for quite a bit as well as extra damage and counters.

Yes, forgot about those. Even with all that though it's hard to comprehend how we got to this point. In my mind, an equally geared premade with all roles should ALWAYS beat a group with no roles. I mean they had no healer for crying out loud!

That seems to be an opinion shared by the majority of the people who have posted on this thread. WIth one person being the exception, I'll let you guess who

I still think it would be best for movement debuffs to be 100% removed, and instead things fixed so that roles are viable without being too lopsided in 1v1/2v2 situations.

Failing that, they should be removed and 1v1's limited to damage role or something. Something other than what they did. It galls me that the role system was just walked all over for that nonsense. It's one of those things that should have been untouchable.