Mosha DKhan wrote: BChizzle isn't the only monk that tanked PoF before it was nerfed. I did it as well and I did it with just the T2 shoulders and RoK gear. Bchizzle's guild kills avatars mine barely cleared VP before TSO so there is a bit of a gear difference there. It is completely possible to tank PoF in T2 gear btw and easy to do it in T3. Guk3 may be a little harder for a brawler that is not accustomed to tab fighting for agro but its easily doable as well. The problem with brawlers is that so many of us don't really know how to gear for tanking or dps or both(well that and there are a lot of crappy brawlers giving decent ones a bad name). Learn to take a hit on your crit or DA for better tank stats (ones that actually matter) and you can tank anything in the game. I am not the best geared monk on my server but I am one of if not the first to get asked to tank 'hard' pug groups or WoE/KT x2. As far as dpsing. I am also one of the highest dps in my guild's raids (when I'm not tanking...and if I am MTing my dps is higher than when I OT btw). Even as a bruiser, Craneflock will help your ae agro and you don't have to lose your crits to get it (drop agi line instead if crits are that big a deal). The problem with Bchizzle is he is actually right but he is a tad abrasive because people do whine too much. Maybe try his and others advice before getting totally defensive and arguing.
BChizzle wrote: Ooh, so you hit Craneflock and have fine AE dps!! Know what, I dont even have to hit any special abilities to have better AE dps on my zerker than what I have on my monk. On the other hand, when I hit Open Wounds on my zerker... now if you dont have a zerker, you propably dont even want to know.
Timaarit wrote: You are comparing an AE tank to a single target one. Its like a zerk complaining about the monk generating higher single target agro.
All tanking issues aside (which I think we really do need to be seriously overpowered to make up for everything), One of the biggest issues that has plagued the class since Launch is that the mindset of the population in general says that we arn't as good as any other classes. Most players in this game only want what is best. They only want the best gear, the best weapons, the best spell qualities, the best abilities that make the game easier to play. Sadly, this means that they will always think of a plate tank to actually tank, and they will always take a scout to do DPS. SoE isn't helping any in this regard by not giving us any true definition as a class, and constantly ignoring our pleas. I think our class needs to be overpowered compaired to the others. I really mean it. For the sake of balance among the tank classes, the only way to balance us is to overpower us. Think of it as a scale. On one side of the scale, we have 4 50 pound weights that represent the Gaurdian, Paladin, Berzerker, and Shadowknight. On the other side, we have the Monk and Bruiser represented by 2 50 pound weights. If you were to weigh these classes, the 4 would obviously be heavier (thus, stronger) than the 2. In order to balance them out, there would need to be significant weight added to the 2 brawler classes to even them out with the other 4. Those two 50 pound weights would need to be changed to 100 pound weights to even things out. I use "Weight" as a metaphore for class strength. The only way to balance us out is to give us so much that it won't be fair to the others. That's my feelings on the issue. The point is that SoE needs to convince the player base as a whole that our class can do anything just as good as the other tank classes, and they need to show proof of such. SoE says that we can do anything just as good as any other, but they don't do anything to support that claim. They say that if a raid guild has the mindset that they absolutely need to have a plate tank as their main tank, then their way of thinking is wrong. It's a Public Relations issue.
Arguing that there's a lot of bad brawlers around is a rather flighty argument - what do you support it with, to make brawlers lower-than-average skilled players? Skimpy clothing attracting a cyber-crowd? I would have agreed (regrettably - AB player here) up until they gave everyone gis, making this argument pretty much moot since RoK launch. Higher soloability leading to lower group experience? We're not the strongest solo fighters anymore. Shiny farmers? Rarely see those in group anyway. Rather than arguing that we're worse players, I'd say we're categorically confused (pardon the pun); our class has been changing definition in the game as the wind has been blowing. Players, myself included, are sometimes really slow to adjust. When I started raiding (KoS) I was told rather directly that what I needed to watch was the parse. Brawlers were a DPS class, end of story. This lasted until around the end of where we got to in RoK (and instanced content on farm status for months on end, no serious attention given to contested content). In tSO, it felt very much as if the developers up and decided that was no longer going to be viable - so they nerfed that aspect of the class and gave us more tanking tools instead. With the release of DoF, from my understanding, they did much the same. With LU1, they did, again, pretty much the same. With the release of the game as compared to eq1, again, the brawler (vs eq1 monk) was fundamentally changed. This is the problem with brawlers, and this is why the class has a bad name; some players pick up quickly and accept new roles. Some don't, mope about them for years, and give the class a bad name. I'm currently enjoying that particular solution greatly myself, because this is not the class I signed on to play, whatever relevance or merit it may now have. The fault in this? Bad development decisions based on lack of vision for the class. I'd be happy arguing what I think would be a fun brawler class - but that's not the point here. I don't think it's even possible to argue what the class should be come next expansion. It certainly does not feel as if the developers know. Claiming to be "one of the highest DPSers" on a raid is all good and well, and I could say much the same in RoK. If you're seriously saying you raid higher-end tSO content and land in the top 4-5 of the parse on a regular basis... Please show me zonewide parses? I've been gone from the game since SF went on hiatus and don't much like the idea of spread misinformation when I do post here now and then - but I do not much trust claims without documentation here either. Also, if we are to ignore BChizzle, feel free to ignore Felishanna as well; she's the resident "holier than thou" type troll on the forums. I like both, really, but take what they say with a bucket-load of salt. If anyone wonders why they've yet to be banned, I'm guessing it's because they often make sensible points - although they do have a way of doing it that tends to offend people. Finally, Cusashorn: Brawlers need to be overpowered to be balanced? Look up the words - you'll realise they're mutually exclusive pretty quickly. Brawlers are fewer in number and have exclusive (and hence comparatively rare) loot because we're the only leather-wearing fighters, and this is a problem, you're correct. Two obvious solutions: Either, universalize gear (deflection chance = block chance etc) which will be hard with leather vs. plate armor. Or: Make sure brawlers do something that plate tanks do not. So a specialisation argument, I could follow to some extent - though I'll dread seeing the class changed again to achieve it.
Dorieon@Unrest wrote: Can you elaborate on what you've said about taking a hit to your crit or DA for better tank stats. What tank stats actually do matter? There are a lot of different ones, and it might be helpful to know which mean more than others. (deflection/defense/parry/riposite/crit mit/etc) For tank gear, what are the most important stats and what should we be looking for?
I like the defensive stats like +defense, +parry, +deflection because they help me take (or avoid) hits on higher level mobs. Other than that +mitigation and physical resists is nice because it helps us take hits. Getting into T3 or better is huge though, simply because if you want to tank effectively you need critical mitigation.
Dont worry about +deflection, parry or defense too much, these bonus' will come easily from group buffs and brawler specific loot. +skill points are your contested avoidance, even though they do help on debuffed hard mobs, they are drastically inferior to uncontested avoidance. The stats a brawler wants are "deflection chance", x% avoidance increases (like %parry, %dodge, etc), +x mitigation increases and +x% mitigation increases (not specifically in that order). Mosha DKhan wrote: irony?
Cusashorn wrote: While I'd love to be OP that just creates the same issue for other tanks. A better solution is to take what makes the current best tank (SK) work and have that level across the board for all tanks.
Siatfallen wrote: I see your point. There are alot of bad players of all classes tbh. What I meant is that alot of people roll brawlers as alts for the 'shiny farming' or 'dps' and then because they are alts and don't get the attention given to a main they are normally not as well played so don't dps or tank as well. When a brawler who normally is only dps tries to tank and isn't successful they always blame the game instead of themselves for not having tank gear or not having the experience. If it helps, there alot of good brawlers out there too.
Nancy@Kithicor wrote: just a little post about the deflection chance. i got 2% deflection change out of the new racial changes and guess how much it boosted my avoidances?.... a HUGE amount of .5%...... if you think that that will help you are retarted like i said and you completly worded my quotes meaning. was not calling the tanking stuff retarted but bchizzle. and if 2% only did that well then i hope they nerf the shield blocking crap because there 15% gives them a hell of alot more than my HUGE 2%. just saying
Nancy@Kithicor wrote: This is pretty much exactly what I meant by tank stats that actually matter. All the +defense/deflect/parry stuff is nice but uncontested avoidance and +mit gear trump it handily.
Mosha DKhan wrote: Calling names isn't going to help you here. I thought you were going to stop posting anyways? Anyow thanks again for showing you don't have a clue in this post. I think I know your angle now, you are here for comedic value right? You should have choosen a troub or dirge as your class to play they make much better jesters.
Dorieon@Unrest wrote: but is deflection chance contested or uncontested? if it is contested then your saying that we sould not get it and go after something else before it, but your saying that we should get it so is it uncontested then..... i am alittle confused there. your talking as if it is both.
Dorieon@Unrest wrote: Good post. I feel most of the issue lies in the fact that most brawler are dps gearing/speccing and when they do need to tank they cannot. Honestly brawlers first call to duty is to be a tank and dps is secondary. While brawlers can gear and spec for just dps and do fairly well that is something that sk's, zerkers, and any other fighter can do also.
Aull wrote: Other tanks can't touch us on dps though. Pretty much you have to have a huge number of adds for an AE tank to even come close to us, while the rest of the single target tanks don't even come close. So while we might have to sacrifice some offensive stats to become more effective at tanking, plate tanks sacrifice defensive stats to become more effective at dps, its just to ends of the spectrum. A perfect example of this is the start of the expansion I was all defensive gear while my plate tanks were gearing more offense, dps was close with me just beating them out, soon as I started adding offensive gear they can't touch me anymore when it comes to pure dps mode, I however can throw on my defensive stuff and be just as effective of a tank.
