Would you take this deal?

SO right now (despite many objections) its fairly obvious to see that the lib has become pretty useless. its only good in smaller scale fights, and is completely useless in large ones. It takes a HUGE number of aircraft to overcome a small number of AA (a reversal of the way it used to be). Please dont focus to heavily on this paragraph. its my opinion and not the content of this thread.

one of the main reasons why libs are the way they are is a combo of 2 things:
1: a lib must fly PAST its target before it can engage, severely limiting its time over target
2: every teeny weeny movement from the pilot is transferred to the gunner, making gunning very difficult during moving periods (especially if turning or banking)

the result is a heavy reliance on hovering as an effective tactic for the liberator. a hovering liberator (or slow moving) is immensely effective un challenged. the moment AA is introduced, you need to start moving and you can no longer be effective, so hovering is the only option for most crews. I know that experienced crews find ways around this, but for the most part the basic mechanics of the liberator heavily endorse hover-spamming. the lib also does VERY little damage over time compared to its AA counter part. yes it kills things pretty quick, but it does NOTHING in a pass or 2.

With this in mind my suggestion is this:
-Double the effectiveness of liberator weapons, and eliminate bullet drop
-stabilize the belly gun, and give it a full view under the aircraft, including looking forward.
-increase damage from AA by 50%
-increase damage from ESF by 80% (esf's are supposed to be the lib killers after all.)

Keep in mind, im not actually suggesting these changed in detail. im more curious to see if lib pilots are willing to sacrifice survivability for damage potential, and to see if the ground guys are willing to be more vulnerable if it means potentially killing more libs. this thread isnt about the numbers, its about the concept.

With changes like these, i think we would see less hovering, and more "bombing". it would encourage high speed passes. It would allow liberators to be more effective in large combat zones, and would make smaller units more capable of defending themselves.

thoughts?

I was going to be sarcastic. Throw out some one liner.

I can't. There are no words. Not for that post.

The extremes you're proposing as a response to frustration over receiving counter pressure are just too much to take seriously.

You can't do 'passes' when lock ons exist. The whole idea of passes is that you drop your payload and then you're out of range, albeit behind enemy lines, and now use the flanks to get away. What would happen here is the same as happens now. 8 Annis lock on. Lib dies. It would just reduce the number of Annis needed.

Also, the guns are easy to use, bullet drop changes nothing, the stabilisation is alright, albeit a bit stupid not to have a 'you are facing' arrow. And double the damage of which one? The one that two-shots everything, or the one that one-shots everything? Lol.

No, Heck NO.

I still die from Libs that shoot multiple hex's away with pinpoint accuracy hitting me even after i move.

However, I do agree ESF's should have a little bit easier time fighting Libs.

How about we just accept that the liberator is a terribad design concept and replace it with something that can actually be properly balanced?

im not frustrated. im one of those ace pilots that has learned to overcome the issues with AA. im still a very effective lib pilot. I was trying to think of means to encourage real gameplay instead of hover-spamming.

less assumptions, more content in your posts.

Annies are a seperate issue. I et what your saying, but air will never be balanced so long as easy lock-ons exist.

there isnt a gun in this game that 1, or 2 shots everything. infantry does not account for all that is in this game. right now the dalton takes something like 5 shots to kill an MBT. Zephyrs have good damage, but the spash radius is fairly small now (almost the same size as lobbing grenades). double it however you like. its the concept that i want people to think about. not the numbers.

please dont side track this thread, but what new design would you like to see?

Keep in mind im trying to work inside what we already have. if i was making suggestions on the level of re-designs, then yes things would be much different.

If any aircraft is useless it's the Galaxy. The Liberator can at least be super effective if it's in the right place at the right time.

we're not comparing vehicles here. im curious to know if you want to exchange survivability for damage.

I like it and think it's worth a shot.

My suggestion is honestly less radical than yours, and more likely to succeed. The changes you're asking for are HUGE. Absurdly huge.

The liberator has been one of, if not THE, biggest problem with PS2 since release. An actual bomber or other sort of attack aircraft would be much easier to balance, more fun and rewarding to use, and less game-breaking than the liberator.

ok....see....there was an alarming lack of content in that post. you diddnt suggest one thing.....

liberators, even at the peak of their influence, were ANYTHING but game breaking. an uneducated and down right goofy community was game breaking. LIbs have never been difficult to deal with. the problem was that people never wanted to try. now, the roles are reversed. they are stupidly easy to kill, and very difficult to use (given that AA blocks gunners view, forces constant movement, and small A forces can render you completely useless)

A real bomber would be great. I would like to make the lib into a real bomber, with one payload that DEVI STATES what it hits. gunner would have to compensate for altitude and speed (must be provided by pilot) and would guide the pilot onto the target. But thats a huge change, and would require a complete over haul of the lib design.

my suggestion is pretty simple. increase damage by decreasing armor. done deal. not radical at all.

My post lacked assumptions. It was a response. But I'll flesh it out a bit.

-Double the effectiveness of liberator weapons, and eliminate bullet drop

No. That's a full answer.

-stabilize the belly gun, and give it a full view under the aircraft, including looking forward.

No. Positioning of the airframe is a reasonable obstacle for a Liberator crew.

-increase damage from AA by 50%

The Liberator is pretty tanky. Right now it performs very well outside of a lone wolf scenario. Even in trade for your first two points this would result in your airship being laughably fragile.

-increase damage from ESF by 80% (esf's are supposed to be the lib killers after all.)

If you're frustrated with AA now, imagine how you'll feel if you never make it to the location you're attempting to bomb. This is not a good idea.

If you are frustrated with your ability to survive encounters with ground troops long enough to cause damage the solution is not to reduce your ability to maintain your presence in the battlefield. Right now a good Zephyr hit will turn most infantry inside out. Doubling that is still an inside out infantryman. Proposing that your Dalton one shot a tank isn't going to earn you much sympathy.

I'm glad you're an elite pilot. But I have trouble accrediting that title to your crew when you state that the greatest adversary to your success in the field is a requirement that you be on the move.

Being difficult to kill is not what makes the liberator a bad design. Everything about the liberator makes it a bad design. All the things you already stated in your first post, in fact. Your suggestions do absolutely nothing to alleviate any of those issues.

How is a 50-80% increase in incoming damage and a 100% increase in outgoing damage, along with removing projectile drop, not radical? This will basically bring back the sniper libs that flip sideways and lob shots from the next base over, except they'll be ESF fodder.

A flat doubling of damage dealt with a vast increase in turret aim in exchange for laughable fragility isn't radical at all?

Liberators weren't even difficult to deal with? People just didn't feel like trying?

I believe we've heard enough. Good day sir.

Most probably not, unless of course if there were specific damage types that would cause liberators to receive more damage than infantries. Just like Warcraft 3's Armor types. Bullet drop should be in effect and that benefits should stay exclusive for the Vanu.

How many other things can that statement be applied to.

No thanks, I'd prefer survivability. Besides, there enough complaints around about the low ttk particularly for explosive weapons, the proposed changes only make this worse.

thank you for your answers. thats all i requested.

libs have no problems killing infantry. we all know that. its the maxes, turrets and skygaurds on top of the rangers.

and again, since you cant figure this out, moving isnt my problem. its the biggest common problem and the one that encourages hover-spamming. seriously how hard is that.

thats pretty much what gunships do......Again. i like bombers in a traditional sense. but im trying to get a guage of whats important to people. this thread is not about specifics.