Worst update ever?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by UberNoob1337101, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. Demigan

    Actually we don't have to look at them in a vacuum. We can look at them based on how they are used in game, by everyone, regardless of skill level.

    And hey that's what these numbers Campagne gave represent! Now it does offer two possibilities:

    1: There are more gunners on average ("a lot of players total for their MBTs"). The reason we can find is that their topguns are more powerful. This makes the Magrider perform better than the other two tanks. In other words: The Magrider is a superior tank.
    2: The driver more often switches to the gunseat and inflates the amount of gunners the Magrider has. The Magrider still outperforms the other two tanks. In other words: The Magrider is a superior tank.

    Is that condensed enough for you? The details as to why or how do not matter much since it is purely a natural player reaction to the tank, rather than skill and/or coordination. This natural reaction causes the tank to perform better, and makes it superior.

    At the very least the topguns of the other two tanks should be made more attractive until the Magrider becomes the equal of the other two in terms of performance (Note: That does not have to mean equally attractive). That's a fair way of balancing it right?

    I said I think you misinterpreted my words.

    I don't have the numbers right now, but when I checked them this wasn't the case. Due to the lower population and lower vehicles pulled by the VS because of the lower population (they pull the same amount of tanks per player remember?) they will encounter more 2/2 tanks than the % of gunners per tank implies.

    You also have to go 2/2 with the Vanguard and Prowler to maximise their potential. That's kind of the point. So now we have to look at why the Magrider has more Gunners than the other two. The simple reason that you've also given: Their topguns are better.

    But it goes further than that. The Halberd on the Harasser for example or any other NS gun on an NS vehicle scores virtually identical on all factions... Except that one Halberd on the VS Magrider. Hey could the Magrider be a better platform to mount a topgun on? Remember that a Vanguard with a Halberd will fight almost as many vehicles as the Magrider, and only a tiny fraction of those vehicles that the Magrider fights will be 1/2 MBT's rather than 2/2 MBT's, Lightnings, Sunderers, Harassers, Flashes. So in actuality the difference in performance should be tiny for the Halberd Magrider compared to the Halberd Vanguard and Halberd Prowler... Yet the difference is pretty pronounced:


    And keep in mind that they do this with less uniques total:

    You could also recognize that the Magrider is a superior platform for topgunners than the Vanguard and Prowler. Which tells you that the carbon-copy weapons you place on it will be superior because of that. We could remedy this by increasing faction diversity. The Magrider has it's overall mobility and strafing as it's primary ability which suits it just fine. Could the Vanguard and Prowler get similar treatment? Like the Vanguard getting the best reverse capabilities of all 3 tanks? It's an ability that hasn't been given out yet.

    Balance does not mean we have to make everything carbon-copies. It also means that we have to increase the faction diversity and improve the abilities of the tanks themselves in order to get the same performance. Which would be balanced.
  2. Demigan

    Since I scored better than 97.5% of the players in vehicle kills per hour (my grade has dropped to A* on Dasanfall with the HESH since CAI made it a superior AV weapon and I haven't used it a lot since then) I think that I scored better than almost everyone else regardless of them being a BR14 scrub with lobsterhands and a trackpad.
    Just to be sure: With the Titan AP I also score better than 97.5% of the playerbase. No I'm no slouch when it comes to tanking.

    Also you seem to be missing the point. You claimed I was incompetent driving the Vanguard. I'm not incompetent, I'm probably better at any type of tank combat than you. I also used not my own experience but the numbers of all players. And the simple fact is that the Vanguard is outperformed by the other two.
    Now you are probably one of those idiots that will instantly scream "they be less skilled!". Yet the NC is equally skilled with almost every single NS and carbon-copy weapon in the game... But somehow they are less skilled the moment they touch their faction-specific equipment?
  3. pnkdth

    I'd love the idea of emphasising the other's traits more. With their ES abilities, I think the Vanguards shield should be dangerous to even touch turning it into a dual purpose of a ram and defensive shield. It would also make tank battles more interesting as just as the Maggie wants to use mobility, with this there be a gamble or mini-meta between them, like, "should I push?" "it is wounded enough?", etc etc. For the Prowler its ability probably shouldn't be a giant sign calling out "PLEASE OUTFLANK ME!"
    When they were playing around with harasser physics on the MBTs my hopes also went up, maybe they were focusing on improving vehicle combat but nope...

    However, even with campagne´s numbers it doesn't mean VS aren't using their tank more to its fullest potential. Since we know it will be 2/2 significantly more often than the other two (especially TR) it means it will more often be supported by another player. In a harasser, for example, it is much more difficult to understand what the driver's aims are thus the gunner needs to make educated guesses or have additional forms of communication. This means, even if they will encounter more 2/2s, the other factions will much more rarely encounter a 1/2 Maggie. Which might just make it seem like the Magrider is better than it is as to compared to when NC/TR fight each other. Furthermore, against the TR, since they have figured out their main gun is the best tool for the job and thus they spawn the most MBTs and use the most 1/2 (much like how VS figured out to be competitive we should be 2/2 as much as possible). Which works wonders for VS since both Maggies and Prowlers tend to be prowlin'. Having more 1/2s and more tanks in general will deflate your stats. Hard to get a nice KPU when you have to compete for kills (not to mention that **** who keeps bumping into you and actually cost you your MBT last time around by blocking your exit).

    As for your option 1 and 2, they are possibilities, and sure, they're condensed (enough for me?). They're also too simple to account for all of the reasons but might explain how some use them though seat swapping is probably occurring on all factions.
    Option 1, does not account for the primary weapon which is a large part of why so while option 1 can be true, e.g. the Magrider is the superior platform, I would add that the cooperation/presence of two gunners makes it so. It is also possible that Magrider is unique suited + superior when using a top gunner.
    Option 2, appears to argue that VS have a super fun time seat swapping and would also imply that VS players are exceptionally skilled in doing so they are able to produce superior results to the other factions AND successfully gun the primary gun (in case it isn't clear, I do not think this point is particularly likely to be true). In other words, it is a lot more likely we're seeing two players in the same vehicle.

    I do not, however, discount the idea the Magrider might be superior in some aspects + welcome additional layers to the other MBTs (the latter especially, let's not make the vehicle game even more dull by making "equally dull").
  4. Demigan

    I think this is where it goes wrong:
    You assume that the VS, TR and NC make a conscious decision to pull a 1/2 or 2/2. For example you proclaim that the TR have figured out their main gun is superior and will spawn "the most MBT's".

    This goes directly against everything that has been said over and over again. The Magrider, Vanguard and Prowler see almost the same amount of pulls per player. So the TR does not pull the most MBT's because their primary is better. They don't pull the most MBT's period.
    This means that there is the same amount of enthousiams and thought going into pulling any MBT, regardless of it being a Prowler, Vanguard or Magrider. The difference is in the amount of Gunners it attracts.
    The Prowler has less gunners, which makes some sense as their main gun will more often kill the target making gunning less enjoyable. For the TR it's a problem with how players are rewarded for their play. It feels (and is) unfair that the gunner of a Prowler is rewarded less than the gunner of a Vanguard or Magrider. This in effect makes the Prowler an inferior vehicle compared to the Magrider as players are less encouraged to use it to full effect, which we see in these numbers.

    And that is the point I'm trying to hammer home. The Magrider is a superior vehicle. The individuals that use it have little effect on the outcome, as we can see that the individual skill and coordination when using everything else is more or less equal. The difference arises when faction specific equipment is used, and the inescapable conclusion is that the Magrider is a superior vehicle.

    On to the more interesting part:

    Yes, this is all I want. All 3 tanks should more or less have the same performance, but be able to achieve that in different ways. Now we don't want situations where one tank will always win... But having to do different things in the same situation to get an advantage? Perfect! An ability to deal damage to nearby vehicles is also something I've proposed before, although not simultaneously with the shield. I would even prefer to move away from the "one size fits all" type of gameplay we see where there is little reason for the Vanguard to pick anything else than the shield, or an ESF is unlikely to pick something other than fire suppression, or nanoweave for infantry etc. If we are going for the faction diversity we should make it so that each faction specific ability you equip drastically changes how you approach a situation, and better yet how your enemy will approach the situation.
  5. placeholder22

    As to the 1/2 vs 2/2, there's a difference in behavior. A 1/2 prowler or a 1/2 vanguard is basically a heavier lightning. A bit stronger maybe but not necessarily worth the difference in nanites. A 1/2 Magrider on the other hand is an absolutely worthless piece of ****, without the ability to look around quickly the driver lacks spatial awareness, it's got a much inferior gun to the alternatives and a lack of armor, and its special abiltiy is to instantly expose its inexpicably weak backside. It's not that you have to have a 2/2 Maggie to "unlock its true potential", you simply have no potential whatsoever as a 1/2 Maggie.

    Thus there is a difference in how 2/2 MBTs behave. Both the Prowler and the Vanguard operate basically as a lightning but with a "guy on top" that spots and adds to the DPS. A Maggie does not do that, it operates in "harasser mode" where the driver tries to set up the top gun for shots and adds to his DPS instead, and rather tries to focus on the same things a harasser driver tries to focus, dodging shots and spatial awareness. Given that the Maggie cannot stand up to either of the other tanks in a straight up slugfest, it works surprisingly well as a harasser, especially as Demigan correctly points out, it is a superior platform from purely a top gunners perspective. The problem that Demigan is lying about is the worthless piece of **** that is underneath the Top Gun.

    • Up x 1
  6. pnkdth

    Part 1: Which is it going to be 1) people play for fun 2) people play for power. Can't have different rules for different factions, and for different gunners. If the TR can figure out that should focus on their primary cannon (which has served them so very well) so can VS figure out they've had the worst primary cannon for years and years and years.

    Campagne's numbers ignore the number of players who participate which fails to take into account all the bodies in the top gunner position. You know the trope, "it is not as fun to face VS as the other factions"? Call me cynical but I am pretty sure that refers to how easy to hard it is to get kills. This tend to be the root of every thread calling for a nerf or buff. Since we know that NC and TR have a lot of easy targets out there in comparison I've got a sneaking suspicion some of these tank battles are on equal footing rather than facing a 2/2 MBT all the time. The air meta has been similar, demanding nerfs so they could play the way they want to play. Then we have the big one, the motivation which loses alerts and that's "finding the good fight no matter the consequences." To enjoy ourselves, sure, but also to get that sweet sweet ego boost which comes from farming and padding out that oh so important KDR/KPM.

    Part 2: Which ties into the abilities and proposals in terms of balance. I mean, we do not have all the data infront of us. Perhaps Magriders kills a disproportionate number of Flashes and lighter vehicles because they roam the same spaces, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps, speculations and so forth. If it is true that VS use the Maggie in a particular fashion then nerfing it to be balanced would cause VS to have to use more players for the same effect.

    In summary, it is important to have things fair and balanced but we need to consider how each tank is used. The latter becomes important because 1) if the factions are using similar number of players different we need to know why, for example, if it is a miserable as hell experience to gun for a Vanguard we should address that. Likewise, we should not punish one faction for actually using the additional player to full crew their MBT 2) and this one is for me, what vehicles to each faction's MBT actually blow up. 3) How much of a multiplier should the secondary gunner be + the balance of power between the primary and secondary gunner. For me, this should be the same across each faction and every single top-gun should cater to each faction's style of MBT, in addition to faction abilities.

    The reason why I want ES abilities to do multiple things is to make things interesting and evolve the vehicle meta (both in terms of keeping players at their toes but also allow for multiple roles). In a MBT you can't spawn a new tank for every situation as you can with infantry. So let's say each faction has an offensive/support/defensive ability which have two effects each we are variable in terms of offence/defence. That, and I NEED a harasser physics Vanguard in my life (ok, not really, but there is no reason a threaded tank should be so clunky).

    All in all, I think I've gotten a better understanding of your position even if we disagree on the why in some places.
  7. JibbaJabba

    Prowler tank best tank.

    Magrider also SUPER good, no doubt.

    The Vanguard does have this cool feature in that it always glows for a few seconds before it dies. :)
  8. OpolE

    First time my PC ran and kept freezing in PS2. SHOCKING

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