Why Do Players Percieve NC As FoTM?

I can obviously give no personal reasoning behind people leaving their empire for NC, since I did not leave mine. Nor have I attempted to. I can try to guess, but it will be just that, guesses.

(Does it count hunting my own outfit members, and failing, as 4th factioning?)

My opinion?

NC is just more interesting to play at the minute.

I think we just have a more distinguished arsenal available.

We have slow firing, high bullet damage guns that excel if you have time to line up the first shot (Reaper, ACX and SAW) and time to burst fire.
We have a solid mid range options in the Gauss, Merc and Razor
We have competitive close range in the GD7F, GR22 & GD22
And we also have the Jackhammer, which is probably the best conceived HW in that it is the "best in class: shotgun"


Then you look at the VS and TR weapons, and actually, a lot of them don't feel different from one another. Pew Pew and Dakka Dakka isn't as satisfying as the cracking noise the NC guns make. Lots of same damage guns mean you probably just find one in that category and use it all the time(?)

You can argue to the cows come home whether you think they're better. The stats show reasonable balance even with population weighting - worth thinking about. Perception will always be compared to what you used to have, but NC weapons didn't magically get better with the Nanoweave pass: How much any given bullet does is irrelevant, it's how fast you can get to 1,000 points of damage, then how easy it is to do that with various accuracy levels.

I think also the flavour-of-the-month guns were on the TR and VS side prior to ZOE/Striker/Vulcan-H changes, and now they've been balanced back to where they probably should have been all along, players go looking for the next most fun toys. Which I think are NC ones at the minute.

Why?
to many WTJ ... and the aegis MAX ist a really massiv problem. They're to strong in close combats.

btw ... TR need the "old" fracture back = ]

Actually it was straight DPS numbers + reload time.

Whats great about forums is that you can go back several pages and quote things that others try to distort, misinterpret and/or outright lie about. What you claim I said is not even close to accurate; in fact, it makes no sense at all.

Rof * Damage / 60 = DPS

Reload speed was relevant since it seemed to be a factor. We're talking 1/10th of a second in some cases, at best 1/4 of a second better reload times. Not as big of a factor as implied.

It gets even better here:

Especially this part:

Because math and data are for idiots. Stats are for morons, what we deal with here are personal opinions and baseless statements.

Not sure what I'm missing. You are claiming NC players saying NC are UP, I see no evidence of that here. There are I admit a few people that claim that in other threads but that is a minority

I will admit that the perception is NC are the most powerful at the moment but that is as a result of the nerfs to TR and VS weapons (nerfs that made all empires weapons for the most part equal) and the population spike the NC currently have.

I would be happy to see TR and VS receive buffs to some of their weapons to attract back some TR and VS players, even though I think the actual weaponry is pretty balanced as it is.

As an NC player I can tell you I hate having such an OP population and would like to see something done to fix it

You rang?

...

No but srsly, as to the rest of your post, firstly, please understand that NC learnt all denialism strats from 8 months of TR doing the same... And secondly, please present me some statistics that compare the balance pre and post-PU02 showing larger imbalances after than before?

Just having a quick look very briefly at KPU deltas [numbers herein are totals, since the number of weapons in each category is the same and Google Docs is lame]...

LMGs, the difference between factions WAS 6 (with NC in the middle), it's now 2. TR seem to have won out the most here, receiving a boost of 8.6 compared to the boost of 5 both NC and VS saw. Man, that headshot change obviously favours NC... And the balance is definitely worse now, right?

Carbines, the difference WAS 11, with TR enjoying a very clear win. It's now 5, with TR still enjoying a very clear win. Deltas range from -1 to 5... So yes, it looks like TR got nerfed, but on the plus side, the balance is better, and your carbines are still best...

Sniper rifles, the KPU difference by faction has gone from ~2 to ~5... Interesting point here is that NC are the lowest performers now (NC saw an increase of 4.8... VS and TR saw increases of 6.7 and 10 respectively. Note that they were all within 1-2 of eachother before the patch. So maybe the balance has got worse?! Buff NC! ). Dat headshot change showing how much it favours NC again...

-_-

In MAX AV, the difference has gone from 3 to 7. NC saw an increase of 4, TR 5, and VS -1. Note that TR were in front to start with. So, TR out in first place by ~4, and VS sitting in last place. Dem NC buffs man. Looks like TR really were destroyed... But on the other hand, you're right, the disparity has got worse... TR AV MAX could really use some nerfs...

In MAX AI, the disparity WAS 23, with VS leading, and 10 separating TR and NC. After the patch, the disparity has dropped to 13; NC seeing an increase of 10, TR of 7, and VS a drop of 6. Seems more balanced now, though as you know, I think the point is completely moot given that you're comparing completely different weapon systems, so talking any more about that is worthless.

ARs look pretty suspicious - a 7 increase in KPU on two of the NC rifles (the DMR and the Burst?! Pahaha) leads to a larger disparity (by 2) than pre-patch (we ought to see this on other burst variants, but don't - small sample size?). Meanwhile, TR and VS saw more consistent boosts across the board with one or two weapons losing out (as NC did)... Definitely need more data here... In the mean time, nerf the Gauss Rifle Burst!

And that's my lot, as I have to go to work. Very prelim, and arguably not the best way to look at balance, but you're welcome to adopt a more thorough approach and present your findings. You -really- need to stop basing balance arguments on patch notes and start looking at statistics; they really don't go hand in hand. It's quite clear that TR has received some massive help in PU02 (poor VS, imho), and it's also clear that the balance in most weapon classes has indeed improved. There are still some outiers that A: require further stats, and B: may involve nerfs/buffs - sadly for TR martyrdom, aside from ARs and your continued 'Shotguns should perform the same as HMGs' campaign, the other areas still favour TR, who appear to have gotten the largest boosts from PU02 :O

Back to the original question for a sec and the answer is easy. Population is Over powered. You can forget why the first few traitors jumped ship, but once there starts to be population imbalance it becomes self-fulfilling.

Beyond that, as I have said in other threads, I don't think TR needs a power buff, it needs a fun and quality of life buff.

Not really. In fact I would have liked all MAX AV weapons to be as useless against infantry as the pre-buff Vortex (which is not particularly hot post buff). Then picking a loadout would have more weight:

• AV loadout to counter enemy MAXes
• AI loadout to counter enemy infantry
• Mixed loadout to be decent at either but not excel in both

Yes I make a real point of trying to stealth under 252V sunderers just to get a crotch shot off on our old outfit leader when he's playing. It hasn't worked yet... But it will...

A few quotes just by looking in your history (too lazy to look for more):

You are just using poor polemic statements to generalize all NC forum users. There are no suggestions to eliminate the problems or to improve the situation. You are just attacking other forum users who have different opinions than you.

(Yes I know, all quotes are out of context, but they do a great job showing your attitude.)

Could some weapons do with being re-tweaked back upwards a tad ? I'm sure they could ..

But I think now its more a case of taking each weapon as an individual case rather than calling out for Global buffs or nerfs, or Globally calling one faction UP or OP

IE: Could the Trac5 - S use a buff or should the ACX-11 be tweaked down a touch

That post was in reply to Ncagentwhateverhisnameiskevin actively trying to deny the existence of the benefits of higher damage weapons (such as more damage/mag and generaly a higher HS multiplier) in order to downplay the advantages NC weapons have over other faction's weapons and to exagerate the advantages of other factions over NC weapons. It served to adress my pet peeve of the anti anti NC ********** coupled with the anti-TR ********** obstructing any meaningfull ballance disscusion. I have seen a hundred such threads, each invariably ending with the same outcome, the sucess of each thread powering the NC's woe is me crusade ever onward with the "omg nerf TR" tinfoil hat crusade not far behind. They shouted and screamed at the TR for months on end and then after what, a single month they start complaining how unfair it is that people are complaining about the NC.

Pet peeves like these do not rest easily with me.

and now for your post. The NC Scatmaxes are outpreforming TR AI Maxes by almost 50% according to the stats so beloved by NC, this has been the case since forever and I honestly wouldn't give a single **** if they nerfed them back to uselesness. But I do love to point out the weak points of the arguments behind OMGnerfpounders!!!! and the crediability of the people making these demands. If the pounders must be nerfed, the cyclers should be brought up to par with the other faction's equivalents.

And how exactly would the vanguard be negatively affected more by the harasser due to the cooldown on the invulnerability mode? You have 45 seconds where you can be harmed and 8 seconds where you can't, the prowler and the magrider have zero seconds where they can't be harmed, How does, or rather did, magburn or lockdown benefit tankers more against harassers than the shield does/did?

And as for the Miller comment, the only time I have ever seen the TR of Miller go over 50% was when the login servers crashed during the middle of an allert, making the TR pop stay relatively even and the NC and VS pop plumet. I know there were plenty of TR to go around several months back and that still is felt in the drive of a lot of NC and VS leaders to go after the TR no matter what but to make blanket statements such as 50% is a gross exageration and one of the reasons why I can't stand NC taking on such an attitude of exagerating their plights and downplaying their sucesses.

By the way, has SOE ever mentioned the existance of the 4th faction? I don't see any reason they'd exist since I sincerely doubt anyone but a handful of players would ever bother to switch sides and lose almost all their progress simply because they recieved some nerfs. If anything old players are coming back since they're happy their side got buffed, and the nerfed sides have players that quit because they don't like the nerfs.

Delta was good way to prove point when it was good for you so whats your point now? It was ok when it showed that NC LMG wasn't so much buffed?

AR
Best before PU2 - Carnage and 3xTR after that
Best after PU2 - Reaper, Gauss Burst, Cycler
Carbines
Before PU2 - Jaguar. Highest from NC - Compact S - 4th with still good KPU above 13.
After PU2 - Lynx. GD7F 2nd. TR carbines only slighly buffed or nerfed to the ground.
LMG
Before PU2 - SVA88. Next 3 positions - NC LMGs: Anchor, SAW S, EM6
After PU2 - Anchor, SVA, Bull

Combined Carbines Delta/KPU (afterPU2)
NC 5.38 10.78
TR -1.02 11.52
VS 2.62 11.125

AR
NC 12.03 12,62
TR 2.83 12,13
VS 7.87 11,2

LMG were already done.

What can we see here? Statistically NC weapons aren't standing out. But... NC have some really crappy weapons and some really good ones. Often best ones in their category (Reaper, Anchor). Ofc if we still assume that KPU is a good stat to measure if gun is good or not.

Its simple thing. NC (or any other faction, it doesn't matter) can have 5 terrbile weapons and 1 insanely op. So in generall their weapons sucks. But in reality every single person will run around with that one op gun. And now it is exactly this situation. NC have some outstanding weapons wich most of NC players uses. Its greatly visible when you check the difference between worst and best gun each empire has.

I look at it like this -- 4th Factioneers are players that want to win and would do anything short of cheating to do it. Their definition of fun is being able to dominate their competition by whatever means necessary. They flock to what THEY perceive is the strongest faction on their server. I'll give you a run down of the history of nerfs and 4th Factioning.

TR once had higher pop on a majority of servers because of flinch. Nothing changed after the fix as most TR moved to other weapons like the TMG-50 or MSW-R. Or moved onto vehicles.

TR and VS typically had higher pop due to the ability to farm infantry with rocket pods and HE. While the NC had the same ability, the difference was in the volume that Hellfire rockets and Dual Photons could put into a group of infantry. Rocket pods were soon nerfed and TR and VS moved onto other things.

TR and VS had higher pop (depending on server) due to the Prowler's ability to spam HE and the Magrider's ability to get to ridiculous places no other tank could go, then spam HE. Once those facets were normalized and servers were merged, many TR and VS moved to NC to use the Scat/Hack MAX.

NC had around 2-3 months of solid population with TR or VS, dependent upon server, being in the upper 20s percentile. With the introduction of Empire Specific Rocket Launchers, the NC population (at least on my server, Helios) jumped by 3-5%, then dropped 3-4 days later with the introduction and nerf of the NC15 Phoenix. TR population jumped and the number of Striker users increased. NC Air power decreased and NC that wanted to fly either switched to TR or VS to get away from the Striker.

Introduction of the Harasser. Great weapon system and vehicle. It was one of the most balanced vehicles in the game. But, then SOE introduced Empire Specific MBT secondaries for the Harasser and changed the game completely. This is where the Harasser became OP, but favored the TR more than either faction. FOTM players switched over to use the Vulcan-H and Marauder-H, while NC players stuck with the NS Fury and Halberd (Saron-H for VS), ignoring their low performing ESWs.

Introducing Test Server and the ability to preview Empire Specific MAX abilities. People saw the ability of the VS Zealot Overdrive Engine and soon players began switching to VS. The main move came a couple weeks after ZOE came out as more NC and TR moved over to VS and pulled ZOE MAXs, pretty much farming the other two factions for months before they were rightfully nerfed. Harassers were nerfed, followed by Nanoweave. Infantry weapon systems were changed, some of which favored NC, but not really.

Come to present time, when all these nerfs to the "fun" weapons of the TR and VS, the NC received an alleged balance to a select few weapons. FoTM players saw this as a buff and flocked to NC since their fun was taken away.

TDLR; People perceive NC as FOTM because it is true. Some people will flock to what they believe is the stronger faction at that time. Unfortunately, as an NC player, I can attest that NC has pretty much been the same since release. A few exceptions to be noted here and there, but we have received little to no buffs/nerfs since release.

My opinion based on my observations is (as stated in other threads from time to time): The current situation is probably relatable to socio-economical trends, in our case the "beginning" can be tied to/was triggered by the Z-event (influx of people; WDS). That may sound overly scientific, and mathematicians or peeps with studies in said field can analyze it, but chances are nothing of use can be made out of it (for us players at least, if I want to be negative I would say SOE can monetize on it).

Worth to note: the actual trend (FotM as forumites like to call it) began earlier - the overall population growth made it more plain. These trends vary by server, the "noobie-boom" only elaborated the imbalances in population.

TL;DR
It's human nature, some may claim herd mentality; either way I predict it will change or at least lessen when WDS ends. For the time being one should live with it, and try not to make it worse (read : don't jump ship).

NC was allways well off on most parts. Solid one might say.

Zoe nerf stripped off the only appeal the 4th factioners had on VS.
Striker, Fracture, Prowler nerfs took the TR down from their long held "Most OP stuff" position.



To sum it up:

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

I think it's more that we just have more variety in our weapon choices within the same group compared to say TR for example .. My HA has a different LMG in each of it's three loadouts and each performs equally as good as the other while retaining differences ..

While my TR char has the Carv in all three because well TR are pretty bland and samey in the LMG department.

How is it that you even know it's a MULTIPLIER, -not- an exponent, and yet you fail to realise this means that it cannot be 'generally higher'?

The multiplier is 2. If I land 10000 worth of damage on a players head, it will do 20000 damage. If I land it from a 5000 damage per hit gun, it will do 20000 damage. If I land it from a 1 damage per hit gun, it will do 20000 damage. When the DPS is the same, the only advantage is in the alpha strike, which is a nonsensical theorycrafting element that takes no account of actual gameplay scenarios. For every single time a 200 damage per hit gun would gain a massive advantage from landing its first hit on the head, it would just as easily lose any advantage it has at all by failing to land that first alpha strike HS. Higher skill ceiling = higher potential reward with higher chance of failing. The only thing that we can use to measure if the lower skill ceiling is hindering TR as a faction is stats, and they show TR carbines and LMGs well balanced (albeit still best). Your personal preference for high damage > high ROF simply means you didn't pick the right faction, not that your faction would perform better if the advantage didn't exist.

Also, as to damage per mag, I'm pretty sure that for the last 9 months TR having vastly superior damage per mag (to everything but the SAW) meant absolutely nothing and frankly it was a joke that you even had to have longer reload times to 'balance' such a non-advantage? And what's more, I'm pretty sure that you STILL have the highest damage per mag in everything but the SAW - I haven't checked, but I don't remember anything that would have changed that...?

Actually I think that TR have most boring weapons in game - not only LMGs. VS almost every LMG is different.
But variety is one thing. You need variety and good weapons at the same time. Various crappy weapons isn't that good situation
NC have enough good and various guns to support exactly what you did: 3 loadouts, each with another weapons. I can do the same with VS LMGs tbh.