[Vehicle] What do you think about the current Tank Meta?

So, on another thread I got into a discussion about whether the TR is a "nothing", "useless", "trash design", "doesn't fit TR lore" tank. Obviously thats wrong (and got me a mite bit riled up), but it also got me thinking.

What does everyone think about the current state of Tanks? Some pointers and examples for discussion:

1. When I say Tank, I mean the Lightning, Prowler, Vanguard, Magrider, Chimera, and Colossus. Other vehicles can be discussed in relation to them (i.e. what counters what) but mainly stick to the Tanks.
2. Do you feel any particular Tank is Overpowered, Underpowered, Just Right, or is a pointless nothing design? Do you think their abilities need tweaking, or more need to be added? I.E. What should the Numbnutz Reactor be changed to do, or is it fine as is?
3. What do you think the meta is like? Do certain tanks counter others, or certain playstyles? E.G. Is the Colossus a good counter to the Bastion, or does it fail in the task it is meant to fufill? Does it work well elsewhere?
4. How do you feel the Chimera has slotted in? Is it a good addition, is it competitive, is the NSO update pointless, etcetera.
5. Do you feel any specific Main or Secondary guns need tweaking? E.G. Is the Skyguard too weak, do HEAT shells need changing, is HESH or AP too strong, etc.
6. Tanks VS Infantry. Do they have a place in the game in general if they can't cap points? Are Infantry AV weapons too weak and how would you fix that?

If you can think of anything else to say, go ahead! I just want to hear everything you have to share on Tanks and Tank Accessories. Keep it civil, and go nuts.

Being as complacent as I am, I don't usually see too much standing out in tank combat. MBTs feel somewhat equivalent with eachother (to me, at least), lightnings are just smaller, and Colossi are only ever used when there's so much armor in play there's no telling if they're making a difference or not.

If you ask me, I really like the Prowler's overall design, with the twin barrels and the lock-down ability (except for its completely squared side proportions).

One thing I really feel is "just right" among the MBTs is the Chimera's main weapon selection: they feel like they each have a true different flavour. The other MBTs have... overall very same-ish options, nothing has any charm of its own.

One last thing for me to gush out, I adore the Chimera's drift-free handling (and I really hope we get that in other vehicles, specially the Sunderer), but I find its size excessive compared to the other MBTs

Thoughts on the infantry / tank interaction It's not deadly enough. It used to be at launch but no longer is.

I spose if I were king I would adjust the basic cannons with the following:

Weapon / Direct hit / Inner splash / Outer splash.....
HESH / Kill / Kill / OMG I'm nearly dead.
HEAT / Kill / OMG I'm nearly dead / That tickled.
AP / Kill / that tickled / nothing.

Because: Tanks should massacre infantry in the open and they simply don't.

Conversely I would drastically increase the damage from HA rockets, MANA turrets, AV max weapons etc.

For example: A Decimator should put a base unmodified lightning on fire with a single REAR hit. (two shots to kill, 3 if armored)
It should do the same to an MBT with two. (3 shots to kill if armored or not)

Because: Infantry should massacre tanks in close quarters and they simply don't.

MBTs are in a good place. Maybe the Vanguard could use some love. There's nothing that needs to be beaten down a few pegs -- they're slow, you can counter them, the damage is high but fair for the price you pay.

2. I've seen stats that apparently the Vanguard is under performing. I find this very strange, as the Vanguard wins any direct and unnuanced engagement. Yes, either of the Magrider driver or Prowler driver could potentially out maneuver a Vanguard driver to gain enough advantage to win, but there's no reason a Vanguard driver couldn't be the hunter instead of the hunted. The fact that the Prowler MUST outmaneuver the Vanguard to have any chance, while the Vanguard MAY out maneuver or MAY simply face tank to win seems IMBA to me.

This then leads to the question of why the Vanguard is under performing. I don't think we should toss out the possibility that the Vanguard is not what is under performing. I will undoubtedly incite massive NC salt by my following statement, but the flavor of the NC faction tends to attract players who detest organization. On either of the TR or VS I can get an organized open platoon together. Not so much on the NC. If I join an open NC platoon and ask what the plan is, how can I help, I get told "SHUT UP! FIGHT WHERE YOU WANT!" When I've lead open platoons on NC I constantly have to nag people to join the fight that I put the way point on. It's not like I'm leading them to empty ghost caps, it's not like I'm not reminding my squads to make sure we have beacons down, it's not like I'm not calling out a battle plan for how we're going to actually win this fight. NCs would just rather blender the bio lab, and when the PL starts kicking the people who refuse to leave the bio lab, he gets accused of being a tyrant.

I have also seen excellent performance out of the Vanguard when somebody can get the Blues organized. It's been a while since Dr. Moneypants has been able to lead on Tanker Tuesdays, but when he was around, my goodness his armoured columns were monsters to deal with.

So, my take on the tank balance: The Vanguard may be under performing, but it would be over performing in the hands of a faction who value cooperation. I wanted to bring this up because I know somebody was going to link stats, and declare that the Vanguard is under powered and needs to be buffed without providing the context of WHY the Vanguard might be under performing.

3. It's mostly good. I would like it if the armour sides mattered a bit more. Side armour should be weaker, but this weakness should be less pronounced on the Vanguard, since it's meant to be the line breaker. Top and rear armour could also be weaker to make for more specific vulnerabilities. On the flip side, front armour could be even tougher to reward players who have correctly read the play, and turret armour could be a new class of armour on the tank which is even tougher than the front armour. I'm not sure how to handle that with the Magrider. Maybe give them just a tad more front armour to reflect the steep angle shells are hitting at? I get that this game isn't War Thunder, but it could have a little more depth.

4. I'm very glad they didn't go the MOBA route of making the new tank intentionally OP to build hype/boost sales. If anything the Chimera feels like I can kill it a bit too easily. I haven't personally used it, as NSO is a track I already went around back when it was new, got it to 50ish BR before dumping it because it wasn't going to get finished any time soon. I actually deleted the toon to make room for another to join a friend on a different server. A couple years later, I just can't find the interest TBH.

Do I think the NSO update is pointless? It's a much more complicated way to solve a problem than was needed. They wanted to address faction population balance? Great! Juice the bonus for the under populated faction substantially and let players move certs between their characters. Then people can grab a couple thousand unused certs to jump start a new toon, then move into logging into whoever has the 200% exp bonus to move the certs later. That would have taken...what...1%?...of the resources it took to make NSO.

5. Does the Skyguard need a buff? Maybe a little, not much though. It's meant to be air deterrence, but if the sky knights are dueling the Skyguard isn't meant to interfere. A vehicle with lock on missiles might be cool.

For a secondary, a guided missile like the Engi's Mana AV turret could be an interesting secondary. Up close it would need to be slower DPS than the Halberd to be balanced, but would have better range and accuracy, assuming the driver holds still.

6. There's a lot of untapped potential here. In the current meta tanks and infantry mostly exist in their own worlds, and the fact that infantry can take bases off of para drops into beacons and routers often makes the tanks irrelevant. I would like to see the open builder base concept expanded on. Tanks can take those bases, but if builders have made cover for the infantry it can be dangerous. I would love to see multi-control-point open bases.

As for things that kill tanks, I'm not nearly scared enough of launchers, and C-4 is too much of a go to. I think if C-4 had to be placed with a 1 second channel to make it function like a placed charge instead of thrown like a frigging grenade, that would be better. It could even be buffed if it had such a challenge.

Other than that, it's worth noting that in an MBT I will challenge a rival MBT, but back away from a god damn flash.

Prepare to be **** on for saying this, apparently a tank with borderline godmode in 1v1 with the prereq of turning your front towards the enemy = hard if not impossible to pull off and you are crazy for even implying something like that.

Meanwhile every single Magrider is apparently MLG quality, boost strafing around on vertical walls and somehow automagically able to just take a Vanguards rear whenever it feels like it and stay there without the Vanguard able to do anything so the shield and tank is bad and should be buffed.

*Edit:
Oh yeah, forgot that its pointless to consider 1v1 potential since this is a big multiplayer game so that also apparently very rarely happens. Guess that is what happens when you are connected to the hip with the vehicle zerg and just form large groups to lob shells over the hex at each other because the way I play I very often find myself in 1v1 or 1v2 scenarios and out of the tanks only the Vanguard has a decent chance at the 1v2 unless you absolutely outplay them with the other tanks.

Wouldnt mind having on option to replace the main cannon of the lightning with a kobald machinegun

Vanguard is a slow-moving 1v1-centric tank in an MMO that has several fast-moving vehicles, including in the same category (MagRider). It is underperforming because it's in the wrong game. Fine in 1-12 style fights and the gun is serviceable, but in practice it's obvious why it would perform worse than the others.

The MBT's are mostly fine, the crap reactor needs something done with it. Just making the shield not take 20 years once it's broken to recharge would be a start.

The lightning has always been weak and bad, it needs to have 2 guns like the esfs for it to even stand a chance against all the ground & air threats constantly attacking them. Since that's alot of work, at the very least it's front & top armour should be like 20% or something as a quick and easy change.

The chimera is weaker than the real faction mbts, the fake halberd should just be a halberd and not have the dumb charge up. It's also doesn't have a unique ability and is stuck with fire surpression.

I think Tank combat is sufficient, though I would prefer Main Cannon options with some more flavor. It feels mostly like AP is just correct, to use, because it is good enough against infantry and radically better vs tanks. HESH doesnt allow you to do appreciably different things against infantry, so it feels kinda useless, as it means you lose all tank duels.

I feel like Tanks for the most part are powerful in deathballs, and fairly vulnerable on their own. The meta of tanks is a very specific skillset to understand, and I cannot say without being a dedicated tanker, as its really about understanding how two armor columns fight. Infantry can inconvenient and beat light armor, but simple cannot deal with an armor column, but because of redeploying and the like they are far more mobile. The strategic game there is therefore interesting, even if its tactically pretty straightforward.

Magrider and Prowler seem similar in power with properly different niches. Magriders being far less used is an interesting statistic, but acceptable.

Vanguard seems a hair weaker, but not outlandishly so. Should probably get a slight buff.

Chimera seems a full tier weaker than that, but is available to everyone and has its own niches so this doesnt upset me. It feels about in-line overall with Lightnings, which are a fine but clearly worse option. I think as people cert them out they will get a bit closer to pairity, though they will never get there without changes.


TR looks like it wins given the vehicle stats, but then consistently loses alerts which NC and Vanu contest for it depending on server. Overall I rate the situation as 'good enough, but I wish for unique supportive main cannons to differentiate factions further'. A Flare that deals unstacking slow damage in a large area for Vanu, a Magnetic Weight that slows down tanks for NC, a Shield Projector that can block projectiles for just a moment for TR(got no good ideas there tbh), something to shake up Armored combat a bit in the way that class variety does for infantry.

Any of the armor is quite effective if used in cooperation with one another/as part of a larger operation, but a little refresher of the history of the Vanguard may shed some light on any issues with the tank's performance.

The Vanguard has one major disadvantage over the other tanks; its speed, or more precisely, its lack of speed. The tank is slower than other tanks so any move that put the Vanguard into a vulnerable position will be punished more severely than the other tanks. The tank started off with two advantages that offset this; a higher velocity gun and the overshield. The tank also had a high alpha-strike but this is offset by a long reload time so missed shots were more punishing. The vanguard used to have the highest velocity cannon, particularly its AP shells so the tank excelled at long-range compared to its counterparts. That was eventually nerfed which brought the tank's shell velocity on par with other tanks (and makes long-range hits a little more difficult). The difference was hardly noticeable unless attempting to engage at long distances.

The vanguard shield's been another story. It started off as an invulnerable shield (basically a mini Iron Curtain) that rendered the tank absolutely indestructible for up to 5 seconds. It was often called the "I win" button for obvious reasons though it was a fun way to put a big middle finger to the C4 fairy. The shield received an initial nerf which gave it a set amount of damage it could take before breaking. It was just enough to survive the C4 fairy but the tank would be on fire and in immediate need of repair. It would be further nerfed to where the tank cannot survive two bricks of C4 chucked at it, and the use of the shield dropped significantly.

2: the vanilla chassis of the Vanguard is the worst of the three, with only it's vanguard shield helping it keep close to the other two. The problem is that the Magrider can leverage its mobility, the Prowler its dual shot and DPS but the only way to leverage the health and shield of the Vanguard is to get hit.

Upgrade the vanilla chassis and give it something to leverage. Charge-up shots, the ability to have shots penetrate multiple vehicle and infantry targets, different firing modes for each guntype etc. You can then either heavily alter or even completely replace the Vanguard shield so players on the VS/TR don't feel that any Vanguard win was because they pressed the ability button.

3: the meta should be less about what destroys what, and more about what it can achieve. We need more objectives for vehicles to accomplish, although such objectives need to be secondary and not trump infantry so a defender group which is almost always without vehicles isn't automatically screwed.

5&6:

Like Jibba I would want the interaction between vehicles and infantry to be more deadly, however unlike him I don't want the cheesy "I shot in your neighbourhood and got a kill" mechanics of old back. Rather I would turn tanks into swiss-armyknives of destruction.

For starters the main canons could have some variants added. Currently its "big AOE, medium AOE, small AOE with inverse AV capabilities". It makes the guns more uniform and even between factions they are much the same. Introduce some auto-canons! Those could easily have roles against infantry, light vehicles and aircraft.
Further they should start using all those unused buttond on tanks and give them half a dozen weapon systems at their disposal. Co-axial guns, a tertiary top-mounted remote control station with a variety of weapons you can mount in them, AV/AI rocketpods, mortars, alternate firemodes for their main guns, launching air-bursting munition around the tank to hit enemies in CQC, EMP/Frag/AV/smoke versions for many of these options, directional shielding (moving with the turret/topgun), directional scan equipment etc. These could easily be divided between the driver and when available the gunner, you could even let many of these be shared between driver and gunner giving both control to use it when necessary.

Infantry would get more AV types as well. Resource-costing and often applying a debuff to some part of the vehicle. You can make a division between utility versions which cost resources each time you use them and upgrades which disappear when you die or change class but can be replenished for free at ammo packs and terminals.

As for Skyguards, we need to get rid of the ridiculous deterrent style G2A weapons. But if they are here to stay make sure that Skyguards have a second fire-mode which makes them useful against Infantry and Harassers.

I play a steering armored personnel carrier 90% of the time. More than a year. I play different fractions. I have a constant crew.

My heavy rating tank:
Red 10 out of 10
Purple 8 out of 10
Blue 2 out of 10.
-
Dangerous for me (except heavy tanks)
Armored carrier 10 out of 10.
Ant 6 out of 10
Lighting 5 out of 10
Buggy 4 out of 10
Motorcycle 3 out of 10

Peacemaker 30 out of 10.
C4 50 out of 10

I find it interesting that people claim the Vanguard is slow.
Vanguard
~72kph(racer) and 61kph(rival) on flat ground
Prowler
77-79kph(racer) and 66kph(rival) on the same terrain
Maggie
69-71kph(racer) and 58-61kph(rival), faster speed is using the strafe

Yes.... clearly the Vanguard is really slow compared to the others. It has bad brakes though so its slow to stop.

He also has a slow tower somewhere behind the middle, and the tank itself is big. Passing through the wave for a shot, loses a lot of health. No one cares, but does not run away from anyone. And not only the brake, but also the acceleration is bad.

The purple tank can overload the engine to make a move, he gives him evasion from many damage.

Infantry needs more AV options, that´s what i thought since the genesis of this game ..
C4 alone is not sufficient
access to AV grenades to all but LA with a slight buff
Rockletrifle and AVnadelauncher primary to medic
Rockletrifle primary to (yes) infil

underbarrel attachments (like grenadelauncher) should get more ammo trough ammunitionspouch


also more turretoptions to the ANT, Sunderer Rear and Lightning

Yeah, otherwise the armored personnel carrier lives up to the first 2 paratroopers from the c4.
Requires it to explode when pressing the B or Q button

Love me some Prowler, though due to costs I tend to stick with the Lightning. Maybe once I've invested in the Prowler some I'll use it more often. I do agree that the Chimera is very big, but I feel that it's not something that is going to be changed any time soon. Consequences of having a very raised, actually good suspension I suppose.

Hmm. On the one hand, I wholeheartedly agree Infantry AV needs a serious buff. The issue is how you implement that - raise damage and every RL under the sun starts OHK-ing other infantry. It would have to be damage resistances, and IDK enough about them to know how that would work.

Tanks being more murdery... hmm again. On the one hand, they already do pretty well at AI, and more than a few people complain they're too good. Making HESH even worse would drive them nuts. But with the above changes, I can see it maybe working.

Tank vs Tank is in a good place, I feel. But like JibbaJabba says, I feel Infantry AV is a bit weak atm. Especially if we start factoring in ESFs... but this isn't the thread for that, and it's been talked about to death already.

I thank you for your supremely Chonky response, sir.
1. through 4. - Yeah, I get that. I've been through convos about Vanguard vs Prowler, which is better, but I can see organised Platoons of them being nightmares. I don't have much experience with NC platoons, but the main voiceled one has been BHO, where Mike "Matey" 33 or one of his alts directing multiple platoons in engaging in simple zerg tactics. Its effective, but it doesn't invite much co-operative play, and he mainly calls for Infantry and occaisionally to get spawns or Gal drops set up. At least, IIRC. I love running in CTIA organized platoons, would love to see more of that elsewhere.
5. Again, I see where you're coming from. Side armour doesn't matter all that much, and adding more depth would enhance vehicle gameplay. But at the same time, being that accurate with your guns isn't that easy sometimes. The game doesn't have the stricter hardware requirements and generally smoother, more accurate gameplay of War Thunder or other tank sims with similar armour mechanics, and I suspect, based on how the game currently calculates what side armour damage registers on (player position rather than area hit) it wouldn't be easy to work a more complex armour system in, effectively requiring a rebuild of how armour damage registers.
6. I've agreed with you before on buffing underpop XP. There needs to be more motivation for siding with the losing faction, and everybody loves big numbers and rewards. Heck, sometimes I see I have no XP boost and think "aw, that ain't fun". I would probably LIKE swapping to losing faction for more rewards.
7. is a cool idea, and so is 8. Construction needs more of an excuse to be at the forefront of fights, as those fights can be great. As for 9., I've already stated my opinions on Infantry AV, and I don't have a particularly strong opinion on MBTS. And 10....
Yeah, the Invisible Tank Destroyer needs a nerf, my god.

Hmm. I don't concur. Magriders (At least on Miller at the times I play) seem to be a rare breed, and rarely have I been straight flankenstanked by one. Vanguard might be slow to turn for best shield benefit, but I don't think that warrants the shield being buffed. Also, you claim Vanguard bad but say it has a decent chance at a 1v2?

Not sure how I feel on this one. The HESH already does a good job of hitting Infantry, and I otherwise can't see the Kobalt having much of a niche when the Skyguard can do pretty similar, at least in my experience. More guns for Lightning wouldn't be remiss, however.

I agree with the slowness, but thats an enforced attribute, in exchange for its higher health and highest single shot damage. I also don't agree with the 1-12, I see Vanguards doing excellently in huge fights.

First, the Chimera is noted as not having an ability, it was apparently still in the works when the update was pushed out too early. I don't think the Chimera is that much weaker or stronger than other MBTs, and I don't have enough experience to comment on the "fake Halberd". I disagree hard with your Lightning point though, I think the Lightning stands up at about the right level against armour, and against air... well, you take the Skyguard I suppose. Numbnutz Reactor does need a hefty buff, as it currently is outperformed by Nanite Auto Repair, making it literally worthless.

I can understand wanting more Main Cannons, and I'm all for it. Maggy I feel sees less use because it has more of a learning curve - aiming by turning the entire tank, rather than just the turret, as well as its unique hover capability, makes it a bit tricker to get into, hence why I see more Lightnings than Maggies most of the time. TR... IDK. Its probably more than a few factors, but it's been talked about before and I do hope the devs do something to change it.

Huh. Interesting. I recall people mentioning the shield was once a straight buff, ta for the history lesson. Guess C4 Fairies got upset? IDK. A full invincible was definitely too much, but I do see why having a counter to C4 is so nice.

Ah Demigan, I can always rely on you for an in depth response. I'd be all for some Vanguard changes to buff its viability, it arguably got one of the most widely applicable "unique" traits from the doku weapons in bullet penetration. As for secondary objectives, idk. Maybe allow them to hold the point farthest from the vehicle spawn? Or be able to aid in overloading generators or controlling important areas?
Variants are nice. All those ideas are solid, but that requires a lot of effort, and the devs... ain't always up for effort. *sigh*
And death to "deterrent" weapons. Let AA be threatening dammit!

Ayy, a sundy main. Interesting to see what you find most dangerous. Why so low for the Vanguard? I get the Flash is a bit broken atm, but why the Vanguard lower than that? Also I haven't a clue what you mean by Peacemaker.

Good stuff so far all, love to see it!

As an armored personnel carrier driver, I don't care which tanks in pvp are better or worse. But it is very important what tasks they can solve. A blue tank, inferior to everyone in terms of maneuverability and speed, gives rise to a specific autistic behavior of tankers: they do not pursue anyone, because they do not catch up. They don't flank for the same reason. They don't even run away. So far so good - shoot in the obvious direction. As soon as it gets bad, they just die without trying to play on the territory. As an enemy ... it's just lazy lightning. He doesn't flank, he doesn't try to ride like a buggy or tr, he just stands and hits. From the outside it seems that there is no hope = no aspirations. As a result, this is a very simple goal. Yes, a 1v1 APC will not win the battle (if there are two people in blue), but since this is a mmo - with any help it is a simple target. To resist a motorcycle and a buggy, mines + anti-tank hedgehogs are enough. Well, two shooters in the car. And to fight a blue tank, you can just shoot at it, without any tactics. With purple you need to think, with red you often have to change position. Blue is a big and slow lightning bolt for autistic inclinations. I have never, never seen so many blue and any other tanks lead to a blue victory. The peacemaker in my localization of the game is that plane with a huge horrible cannon in the stern.

Quoting me but responding to someone else?
Imo the Vanguard is the best MBT in the game.