Walker/Mech/ Heavy Tank Ideas, anyone?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Wind_Walker, Mar 20, 2016.

  1. Wind_Walker

    If walkers, mechs or Heavy Tanks EVER make an approach towards the game, be they the BFRs from PS1, or a new concept entirely, what would you like to see for each faction?
  2. Demigan

    First of all, any Mech/Walker that I would want to see in the game would be weaker than an MBT. I do not like the concept of a Mech with 50 different weapons completely annihilating everything around him.
    Why? Because it doesn't take a role that's already filled. It would just replace MBT's and Lightnings in their combat role, and probably be more effective at it as well.

    I would want to see something that takes a different role that's not taken yet: a solid anti-infantry Walker that can fight infantry on rough terrain.
    The current MAX is more infantry than tank, we can make a Heavy-MAX (HMAX) that is more tank than infantry, but still has a lot of infantry traits. For instance: Infantry aren't affected by elevation, their aim does not go up or down when they hit a slope, the same would count for the HMAX. The HMAX can sprint with shift, but similar to infantry he can't shoot while sprinting and has a short delay after stopping a sprint before he can fire.

    The HMAX has a mass and speed like a vehicle. So you won't be able to ADAD spam. It would have a normal walk speed of 30KM/H and up to maybe 60KM/H while sprinting with a speed frame. The biggest advantage of the HMAX is it's ability to walk over terrain, obstacles and in between buildings that would stop normal vehicles and then fight there.

    It has armor similar to a Harasser, so it's vulnerable to infantry but since it's not as fast it won't be as easy to escape, this means it has to make use of that firepower to beat infantry. In vehicle combat the low armor and speed will mean the HMAX has trouble fighting off other vehicles, and will need to make use of his allies or the terrain to remain safe.
    Once C4 does not kill the HMAX, but it will set it to burning.

    As a weapon it would carry aircraft noseguns, or something very similar. This allows the HMAX to fill an anti-infantry role combined with anti-air role. It could potentially destroy unattentive aircraft but without the speed and agility of ESF the HMAX won't be able to easily kill any moving aircraft. As an AV weapon the HMAX will get access to a grenade launcher with limited range but the firepower akin of a Vanguard AP canon DPS (without top gun).

    The Walker's size will be as tall as a Sunderer so it can fit under vehicle shields, bridge bomb-protection and can more easily navigate between base buildings.

    Abilities: The ES abilities of both MAX's and vehicles are available. TR's MAX anchor is of course weaker than the vehicle Anchor so the TR MAX ability is altered to a short reload boost. It would also get access to a shield diffuser and most other vehicle abilities such as Proxy radar, smoke, fire suppression etc.

    This would create a Walker that's vulnerable to vehicles, but is a solid option to take with your tank column for protection against infantry and aircraft. Once you reach the base the HMAX's can enter the base and reach area's that other vehicles can't. It's relative weakness make it possible for infantry to use small-arms and chip away at it, or when rockets start flying you won't be able to take much punishment. That's why it's not a shame to give the HMAX powerful anti-infantry weapons.
    • Up x 9
  3. Ryme Intrinseca

    The last thing this game needs is an even lower risk, higher reward infantry farming option than maxes or lolpods.
    • Up x 3
  4. Demigan

    It wouldn't be? It won't be able to hide inside buildings and you could dial down it's health and resistances to be more vulnerable to infantry if you actually think it would still be too strong. BOOM, problem solved.
    Also keep in mind that unlike MAX's this thing can't be revived, probably won't be able to make use of pocket engineers so the user needs to repair itself and is dependent on ammo towers rather than ammo packs. Also think about how these things operate: If they are in between buildings or rough terrain there's more ways infantry can easily shoot at these big things without it properly returning fire. If it isn't on rough terrain or in between buildings it's open to attack by any vehicle. Since unlike Harassers it won't be as cheap or sport things like freaking Vulcans I think that it's AI power is justified. I specifically build this idea to give it enough weaknesses to balance it's strengths.
    • Up x 2
  5. Ryme Intrinseca

    Still, why make it specifically anti-infantry, when there's already a thousand things that instaglib them? Wouldn't it be better to make it specialized for countering something that needs countering? For example, you could say there's not really a counter to harassers in the game, so why not give the walkers g2g heat seeking missiles (would also be somewhat effective against armour but not to the point you can go head to head with an MBT - I agree about that). The objective should be to fill a currently empty niche rather than just force yet another infantry farming device on the game. Plus a mech firing volleys of missiles out of its shoulders would be cool :)
    • Up x 2
  6. Demigan

    Because the anti-infantry role for ground vehicles is horrendously underused and has a relatively limited distance range as well as elevation range. There's barely any weapons that counter a solid infantry AV nest for instance.
    Yes we have HE weapons, which are the instagib things you talk about, yes we have AV secondaries and primaries capable of instagibbing and a few almost laughable AI secondaries for vehicles that barely give more power against infantry than the AV secondaries, but there's not a single solid anti-infantry option, especially not one to support a tank column without gimping yourself.
    The good thing about the idea of an HMAX is that it would fulfill a unique role. It would be a solid support unit for tank columns to defend it against infantry, especially infantry sitting on elevations like tower pads. It also wouldn't sport instagib weapons, but rather powerful anti-infantry weapons. Considering it's weaknesses against almost every vehicle out there it is in dire need for AV support at almost all times, and while it's powerful against infantry it has more than enough weaknesses. You could even expand on the weaknesses by giving it weak armor at the legs (assuming we can give a vehicle an infantry-based hitbox system), meaning infantry can deal extra damage against it by hitting the legs. You could also use a vehicle-based armor system and weaken the back, allowing infantry to better deal damage against it with LMG's, Carbines etc and adding the risk of over-extending to the HMAX.

    It's AA support role is also an important feature. Most vehicles do not have solid AA options equipped because it hampers their firepower against other vehicles, which are their main nemesis. By gimping the HMAX against vehicles (slow speed, low armor, low or limited firepower against vehicles) but giving it an excellent double role as AI and AA you make it a perfect support vehicle that has a great skill range. Lower skilled players might just get their butt handed to them by the very infantry they pursue, or get killed while in transit by the aircraft they can fight off or just gunned down by a Lightning, Harsser or full blown MBT.
    The fact that it's armor is not a solid protection against either infantry or aircraft also allows them to fight back. An ESF could very well kill the HMAX, but with proper damage reduction against some aircraft weapons, the HMAX stands a good chance of returning the favor in the case of ESF attack.

    Hey, giving it an anti-light-armor weapons system is all fine with me, as long as the HMAX has to choose which one before he spawns and can't switch mid-combat (no problem with switching out of combat though). I think there's more than enough cause to create a vehicle designed to combat infantry, but that gives enough counterplay options for infantry to fight back.

    Maybe... Some kind of multi-rocket launcher? No bullet drop, high velocity, no homing or heat seeking capabilities (hence the rocket instead of missile). It could work decent against infantry and great against Flashes, Harassers and aircraft, even going so far as being a decent anti-Lib/Gal weapon (with the right velocity it would be tough to hit ESF), but would have high damage reduction when shooting things like Sunderers, Lightnings and MBT's.
    • Up x 1
  7. AZAN

    I like Demigans position on having a light mech, there's definitely a niche for having a vehicle that can support infantry in rough terrain.

    Most likely it won't have a specifically anti infantry role if its created. Vehicles in this game all seem to offer turret choices for dealing with different class types, so this would likely be the same.

    It should be like this ;):

    • Up x 1
  8. Liewec123

    not a fan of walkers, since max already fills that role, albeit still being very squishy for the pricetag of an MBT.

    but i like the idea of multi person heavy tanks, i'd like em to be slow, perhaps the entire crew all need to be squaded up and each deposit 450 resources into the vehicle terminal to spawn the vehicle.

    one driver (perhaps he gets a coaxial if we're generous!) and the 2-3 other people will have chose their weapon at the terminal,
    their weapons would be faction specific heavy AV,AA or AI options.

    it'd be very robust from the outside but have a small entrance for infantry to enter and destroy a weak spot (kinda like the scarabs from halo)

    faction specific abilities could be similar to MBTs,
    the vanu heavy tank would be a hover vehicle and move quicker than the others, the driver also gets an omni-directional boost
    the TR would get their quintessential Lockdown turning it into a death spewing fortress
    the NC could get a one directional shield which covers a front arc (can be shot out of but not into)
    • Up x 1
  9. Demigan

    Buildable ES Colossus tank?

    I would be a fan of making them ANT-build. This puts a limit on how many and how fast you can build them.
    For instance: You need a 90 to 100% full silo to build one. This means that the Silo shouldn't be supporting many modules at the time of building. In theory one person could collect it all, but there are many risks involved. Including the risk that if the owner of the Silo dies, the Silo despawns the moment the owner respawns. This means that all players could lose their investment in one moment simply because the Silo or it's owner died and then have to start over again.
    By forcing players to first take their time collecting resources and building one you can limit the amount that are used on the field, and create a larger risk vs reward. Those players driving in that awesome Colossus tank? They worked for it and they shouldn't be endangering it needlessly because it wasn't cheap. It took time, effort and risk, and now that they've build it it's the players that fight it that have to take time, effort and risk to defeat it.

    This could easily allow you to create a tank that is big enough to allow infantry to fight on top and reach weak points, or you make sure that teamplay of a similar size force can beat them by dropping C4, getting tank mines on top or mauling it to death with a coordinated squad of aircraft, tanks or Harassers.
    Since you have a limit on how many you'll likely see at a time you can go all-out on the amount of hitboxes it offers without it affecting player performance more than several infantry would. Hitboxes for the treads, optics, turret ring and maybe other special parts of the tank could offer ways to damage, disable or hamper the tank until it's fixed. This allows a small group to for instance blow off the treads to slow it down and then regroup somewhere else to prepare.
    • Up x 1
  10. Savadrin

    Why not make the HMAX a two man MAX suit?

    Give the main suit regular MAX-type weapons, give the topsider his own topside-style weapon.

    I like your ideas, but I personally would prefer to see this one with Icarus Jets, rather than a gate shield diffuser.

    I'm just saying there's already a real-world prcedent for a two max MAX suit as you can see here :D

    • Up x 1
  11. Reclaimer77

    Did you ever play Planetside 1? People made the same arguments for BFR's.

    They ruined the game!
    • Up x 1
  12. Demigan

    BFR's: Completely dominated vehicle and infantry combat with various weapons and abilities and had practically no weaknesses
    My Walker: Has many weaknesses balanced with power, but there's more than enough room for counterplay by it's intended targets to fight back.

    Stop making wrong comparisons.
    • Up x 1
  13. Reclaimer77

    Except there WAS a weakness built-in. EMP grenades would kill their movement speed and shield regen. Sounds good on paper, right?

    But in actual gameplay this was just an inconvenience. The things DOMINATED until they had to be "balanced" to the point that the users of them and those fighting them, were both unsatisfied with the results.

    Demigan I think you believe that every idea can be properly balanced. You don't seem to understand that the premise of some ideas need to be outright rejected. Mechs, BFR's, super-tanks etc etc, are all bad ideas that need to be scrapped. As they cannot be balanced within the existing game.

    There's a reason you can't play infantry in Mechwarrior.
    • Up x 2
  14. Savadrin

    I say bring in the super tanks and BFR's and make sure they all take at least 3 bricks of C4 to destroy, and have a built in spitfire kobalt on top :D
  15. Demigan

    I think adding two people into the HMAX would reduce the fun and effectiveness of the HMAX. MAX weapons are as a rule very short ranged and the combo of one relatively long-ranged vehicle weapon with short-ranged MAX weapons wouldn't be a strong one. It's like the Prowler before the Gatekeeper but in reverse. It's main canon was (is) so good at long-range combat while most of it's options were either too low on the DPS compared to the AP canons or had too short a range that no one would want to jump in.

    As for Jumpjets instead of a Shield Diffuser (or as another option), I have no problem with it as long as it has a very short burst and can carry you up over a vehicle shield generator. It should also have a relatively long recharge, as it shouldn't become a kind of super-LA vehicle.

    The video gave me one more idea: A primary melee option. You replace your primary weapon for a melee only option that can actually damage almost anything well, from vehicles to infantry. The Drawback should be obvious: You have to get close, real close. Considering the relative weakness of the armor and health of this Walker you would be hard-pressed to Melee most vehicles to death, especially since these vehicles can outrun you. But it would be damn fun to smash infantry and vehicles to bits with a massive hammer/sword/plasma whip right?
    • Up x 1
  16. Reclaimer77

    A jump jetting super Max or BFR would require an ENTIRE new base design for every base in the game.

    This would be a nightmare. Defending a base would be impossible. Flying robots would sweep the towers and catwalks of all resistance, then MBT's and other vehicles would camp out in your courtyard.

    Are you guys really thinking this through?
  17. Reclaimer77

    LOL too obvious! I'm not taking the bait :p
    • Up x 1
  18. Demigan

    No, it absolutely doesn't sound good on paper. A weakness to a single class? Even if EMP grenades were universally available to all classes, all you do is deactivate the shield and their movement, they would still have all their high-powered weapons to blast you to bits and probably a lot more range than your EMP grenades to use it.

    My idea has multiple weaknesses and allows for counterplay of it's intended targets. The HMAX is designed as a powerful AI tool, but he's not invulnerable to infantry. Potentially a single infantry can take him out with AV mines, C4 or managing some good hits on weakspots or just using terrain and buildings to spam his legs with small arms fire or rockets.

    Yes they dominated because the aforementioned weapons vs everything. My idea does not have weapons vs everything and it offers multiple weaknesses that everything can exploit, rather than just one class or has a severe limitation on how the weakness can be exploited (IE the range an EMP works).

    Unless you are Reclaimer and come up with weird comparisons of things that are nothing alike the moment you look further than "they walk on two legs and have one occupant" yes everything actually is capable of being properly balanced.

    BFR's that have weapons that deal 1 damage? BFR's that are actually just an MBT on legs but slower&higher and without a secondary gunner? They wouldn't be OP, in fact the second one would still be worse off than an MBT or Lightning.

    Everything is balanced. If you think it's OP, reduce all stats to 1. 1 ammo, 1 magazine size, 1 shot per second, 1 damage per shot, 1 KM/H speed, 1 health etc. Then start upgrading the stats until it's somewhere you think is balanced. This way everything can be balanced.
    Also let's not forget additional mechanics. A pre-nerf BFR would be incredibly OP, but if the pilot was visible and could be hit? Suddenly you need that power to stay alive, as a single good hit can kill you and leave the BFR unmanned. HE weapons would be incredibly good against it as the splash would quickly kill the pilot and defeat the BFR.

    Yes, because most people just like you assume the mecha's that are shown off in games. Never use games that base their entire experience on something to gauge something's strengths.
    World of Warplanes for instance, it is a game based on aircraft. Now the game is in actuality pretty horrid but it has a perfect example of game balance around a single unit. Aircraft there are the only real threat. There's AA in the game, but it deals laughable damage and some planes can even become immune by turning a part of their armor towards the AA. Aircraft can easily tank 3 aircraft guns and even fly right on top of them. They won't like it eventually, but they have time to completely obliterate several AA sources designed to kill them.

    Infantry shooter games usually also have clear examples. If you run around as infantry for 90% of the game, the vehicles usually have incredible weaknesses that the player can deal with, because if every vehicle in the game posed a terrible threat most people wouldn't like it. People want to feel empowered, so the developers need to throw 100+ soldiers and a bunch of tanks against you that you kill to make you feel empowered.

    Mecha's in mecha games are powerful because every single game with mecha's is designed around them. No other vehicle or infantry will match their power in any way shape or form.
    However in PS2 we can build Mecha's like the one I proposed. It has it's own unique role to fulfill, and that role is not "bristling with weapons and destroying everything in it's path" which is the standard Mecha metagame.
  19. Reclaimer77

    Okay so you've just answered my question: You did NOT play Planetside 1. I rest my case. All classes could use EMP 'nades. And you could get between their legs, where they could not look down, and they were unable to "blast" you with said weapons.

    So yes, on paper the BFR's were built to be weak to infantry and organized squads. That didn't stop them from causing all kinds of balance issues and being a nightmare for the community until they were nerfed into almost uselessness.

    Then we get into the BFR vs Vehicle balancing. NIGHTMARE! MBTs were made useless overnight. Single manned BFR's could destroy aircraft almost with impunity. Etc etc etc.

    Look the one on the left is what we have now. The Jenga puzzle on the right, is what happens when you add Mechs to this game.


    Any questions?
    • Up x 1
  20. Savadrin

    To counter:

    A Harasser can already make it into most bases, and you can drive up into the towers and one the catwalks. The intial surprise is the only punch, within 30 seconds, everyone is on you like flies on ****. Then you die. The HMAX would be bigger, slower, and bulkier, and would make a fantastic target silhouette on a catwalk. Also, tank mines.

    MBT's can't make it through shields, but sunderers with MAx units can, or sunderers can just deploy and everyone pulls MAX units anyway.

    An Icarus Jet mech wouldn't be able to reach a Biolab pad, might be able to get a few places you couldn't otherwise, but it's real purpose would just be to defeat walls like those in Esamir, gate shields, etc. If you don't go absolutely overboard on health/resistances, I think it would be a cool concept, and I like anything that promotes good crew play.