[Suggestion] [Unlocks] Please decide: Specialization, Sidegrade or Upgrade

Dear Devs, please decide what -type- of unlocks we are going to get from the certs/shop.

In beta it was stated repeatedly that the unlocks from both the store and the certs would be specialization or sidegrades, unfortunately that is hardly the case.

First lets define what these three choices mean:

Specialization = Getting better at a particular task with a performance decrease on others.
Sidegrade = equal performance, flavor of usage (aka a fast firing gun with low DPR vs a slow firing gun with high DPR)
Upgrade = better at everything (aka "optimal choice")

Example:

Specialization: Lightning HE cannon (better vs infantry, worse vs armor)
Sidegrade: ???
Upgrade: Bulldog Turret (kills infantry and armor more effectively than Basilisk), Rocket Pods (a secondary weapon)

I find most of the items in the store as well as class unlocks to be straight upgrades, especially the secondary vehicle turrets.

C4 for example is a straight upgrade for LAs making them more versatile = better at more things.
AV Mines for are a straight upgrade for engineers as well (can now destroy armor)
Laser Sights/Compensators all give straight up better weapon performance (in comparison to soft-point or HV ammo that are specializations)

The armor selection for example is done correctly, you either have Nano Weave or Flak, not both, and you specialize in one of them to make it better.

Either you want to specialize us like you said in beta, or you want us to get straight up better, you have to pick one because those philosophies do not mesh.

I think the problem lies with the fact that all choices are available to be certed into instead of following a more traditional "talent-tree model" from other MMOs that excludes certain choices.

The Secret World follows a similar model where all abilities are available to all players, however TSWs design reflects this with having balance towards sub-roles and role-output instead of individual abilities and roles (total dps vs DPS-roles)
PS2 isn't balanced like that (not to mention its not PVE)

This creates a situation where an LA with C4 is as good at "infiltration" as an actual Infiltrator, people can heal themselves with med-packs which should be the Medics job, etc.
It creates total player independence.

Can we get this mythical specialization in the game?
Can we stop having Engineers repairing the tanks/planes they themselves drive? Medics with C4? Everyone with medkits?
It would improve teamplay greatly if we could make players dependent on each other.
You can already change into any class at a whim anyways, so whats the point of this?

bump

You want me to depend on my fellow NC? But theyre all idiots!
Also, it is a valid concern devs should address at some point.

Herding TR is like herding cats. They disperse in 10 directions and then get picked off one by one.

At least with VS I know that the Zerg is led by Vanu, we are just following his call.
Its like the orc WAAAAAAGH! really.

kinda agree.

i think you should start out with all utility and cert should just improve these, would properly fix some of the issue of op vehicle's as well (not much, but would help if you could put down 50 anti tank mines around the base )

"Specialization" and "side grade" are NOT exclusive concepts.

How about this. COLORBLIND MODE! Sure it should be an option in the settings. BUT FFS AT LEAST LET ME PAY FOR IT!

I think there was actually a misunderstanding as to what the devs meant regarding what would be a sidegrade and what would not be.

If I'm interpreting it right, anything purchasable with Station Cash is meant to be a sidegrade. However, things purchasable with certs are, in most cases, upgrades. The idea is that you shouldn't be able to get more powerful items using money alone. Upgrades need to be earned by actually playing the game, i.e. via certs only. For example, I might be able to use my SC to unlock the AC-X11 Carbine, because I prefer slower, more powerful shots. However, if I then want a frontgrip for that gun, I have to earn it via certs - there is no SC option to buy it.

That said, that doesn't mean that what you said is entirely untrue. In fact, one of the forum's favourite bugbears, rocketpods, are available in the Depot, which is arguably a direct upgrade over the default Afterburner Fuel Tanks for SC. This could very easily be argued to be a case of "pay to win" in the game, and does concern me quite a bit as well.

Compensators come with larger hip CoF's, actually. Sidegrade. Laser pointers however, pure upgrade. Just about every underbarrel attachment is a pure upgrade, unless you actually consider the slower equip times with underbarrel launchers as a trade off.

I do agree however, with the exclusives that aren't available until after purchase/certification, such as fin mounted weapons for ESF, or the secondary gun for armor, or utility for infantry.

But then if I knew SOE could get away with it an I were in charge, I'd just unlock all equipment right from the start and let players customize the way they want to from the get go.

That depends on your definition, I'd rather have those concepts separate it makes talking about them more understandable.

For example scopes are sidegrades, their usage isn't a specialization but purely a flavor of gameplay for the individual.

You -could- spin the sidegrade angle that HV/SP ammo is a sidegrade since it makes you use your gun differently, but that would be incorrect as the performance of the gun changes for a very specific distance, i.e. its a specialization.

A gun sidegrade would be a different model with red lasers instead of blue lasers for vanu, or a multi-barrel rocket launcher that cumulatively does the same damage than 1 normal HA rocket.

I see sidegrades like champions in League of Legends. Brandt is a "sidegrade" to Veigar, they both are AP carries with the same potential to carry but differ in their usage and looks significantly.
A specialization would be an AP assassin or an AP nuke, still a carry but focused on single-target damage and sacrificing AOE.
etc.

I think its best to keep those concepts separate.

I didn't know about the compensators.
Just goes to show that the item description needs some work since its not mentioned anywhere AFAIK.

Like you noted earlier, Flak Armor/Nanoweave are "done right", they're specializations.
If I'm understanding your post correctly... you want to do away with upgrades, and focus more on this sort of specialization.

Under that assumption, I'd like to point out that...
If there were no "pure upgrades" in the game, then leveling might lose some of its effectiveness.

1. Carrot on a Stick Philosophy (which any freemium model is based around)
Look at the Scythe. You absolutely need Rocket Pods to be effective against ground units. So it gives me a goal to strive for, if aerial combat is my thing. But if I just 'had' the rocket pods, I could honestly care less about anything else.

2. Pacing
New players who are assaulted by too many choices/abilities/buttons can be turned off to the game very quickly.
I choose the Light Assault class. I have a gun, a sidearm, a grenade, and a jetpack.
I'll explore how the class works before moving on to an advanced weapon like C4 or the situational Drifter Jumpjets.
Imagine a new player becoming frustrated by the ineffectiveness of their C4 (it takes a while to learn strategy,) or not finding a use with their Drifter Jumpjets.

It's very important not to over complicate the experience of a new player (ever play EVE Online, get through the tutorial... then be left still not knowing what's going on?)

Barrel attachments will always mess with your accuracy in one way or another. Flash suppressors increase the bloom rate. Suppressors reduce velocity and damage over range. Compensators simply expand your tightest CoF. A suppressor + soft-point ammunition moves slow as molasses and has no range to it, since the maximum distance to reach minimum damage potential is -10m with SPA. I don't know the exacts of how the suppressor works if it just reduces the minimum damage at maximum distance, or brings the maximum distance in closer.

I just stick with hip-fire intended weaponry and slap an advanced laser sight with a 3.4x scope on top. No drawbacks and sickeningly accurate in both hip fire and ADS.

You are missing that you -still- can straight upgrade specializations.
FLAK armor and Nanoweave has several ranks, it can be "upgraded" in effectiveness, but you will never wear both at the same time.

I don't want to do away with upgrades entirely, i want them to become either specializations or sidegrades.

With Rocket Pods I wouldn't have a problem if the RPs would have a distinct downside to them (the AB fuel isn't a downside, as its not a -direct- performance decrease, but only situational).
Lets say if you take RPs you sacrifice a bit of mobility and maneuverability, always, i.e. your top speed goes down and your acceleration too, bringing you more in line with a gunship than a fighter.
Additionally make RPs specialized AI or AV rockets, not anti-everything (since they also work against slow moving air targets like libs and galaxies)

As for pacing, its already pretty bad and borked.
There isn't a tutorial to speak off and most new player already feel like they are meat in the meatgrinder.
The solution is to have customization for classes open, but provide "decks" or premade "builds" (loadouts) for newbs.
TSW does the same thing. All players have access to 400+ skills from the go, but they can chose to build a premade "deck" that even comes with some custom outfit. An advanced player will still unlock things as he likes, but a new player can be secure in the knowledge that the dev put in some basic choices regarded as "good" or "competitive". (http://www.thesecretworld.com/world/decks/)



And honestly in PS2 there isn't a way to "break" your character.
Also a "trial" for equipment/attachments/utilities would go a long way in ensuring that everyone spends their certs intelligently.
Right now we have this problem where i can try out a new gun, but i can't try it with specific attachments like scopes or underslung nades (for which im considering buying the gun).

I suppose they are seen as specialisation and upgrades with no sidegrades, but frankly if you compare an unlock with another unlock you will see your sidegrades become more apparent. Silencer or compensator? UGL or laser sight?

That said I see little difference between your definition of a sidegrade and a specialisation. I understand what you're saying but I'd rather them grouped under the one category so we can weed out the upgrades (what people seem to dislike in the depot) and flesh out the specialisations/sidegrades (what make us feel unique).

I reread the thread and found you already talked about this, but maybe your definition of sidegrade should just be "Cosmetics" like the skull helmets and hood ornaments... stuff people don't care about.

Sidegrades are not cosmetics, since its not just looks but handling without performance decrease.

Silencer vs compensator are not sidegrades.
They do different things, specialized things.

A silencer makes your bullet performance drop for the positive of not showing up on the minimap when firing.
A compensator will reduce your vertical recoil and apparently increase your COF.
They are specializations.

I used the example of scopes, they are not just cosmetic, they change the handling of your gun, however they do not modify the performance of your gun (stats), a flashlight would also be considered a sidegrade since it doesn't modify anything about weapon performance.
etc.

But i see where you are coming from and agree to an extent.

Alright fair enough, but as the game treats all unlocks equally - relegated to a specific slot rather than the sidegrade/specialisation option, already there is a disparity. If you choose a silencer you have specialised into a stealthier, closer combat role, if you chose a compensator you have specialised into longer range engagements (and I believe also shows you on the minimap from further away) and less sneaky role. If you look at something like the flashlight vs. the grip on the other hand you have a specialisation vs. sidegrade, and the flashlight is only a sidegrade to the stock rifle, not the rifle with a grip. This makes the grip an upgrade compared to the stock/flashlighted rifle, but a specialisation compared to the laser sight that occupies the same slot.

The scopes seen as your example of a sidegrade are unique in that they are ALL sidegrades except the IRNV scope which lowers the range of your rifle for better clarity of view, and is thus specialisation without changing the attributes of the rifle ,still behaves the same just changes your view - but that is also your definition of a sidegrade. That's where the problem in defining these things lies.

Drifting off topic though.

The point is eventually that spotting upgrades over ...others... is difficult due to upgrades are sometimes only upgrades over the stock weapon and not over other upgrades: HE vs. HEAT vs. AP are specialisations, but upgrades over the Viper (contested viewpoint, but my own)

I'm fine with sidegrades.
I'm fine with specializations.
I'm not fine with upgrades

This is a competetive FPS. Your gear should never give you an overral inherent advantage, it should have its different strenghts and weaknesses balancing each other out.

Ideally, a battle rank 40 should be any more powerful than a battle rank 1. His Certs should just mean that he will have a lot more options and styles to choose from.

Like this post a lot and voted you up


This is the concept that you should accept OP

Frankly its why the game appeals to me

Get the stupid American concept of "must have the very best OP upgrade to be battlefield Lord" out of your brain... or go play BF3.

Every "sidegrade" or "specialization" has a + and - What you win with one hand , you lose with the other. The game has long legs because you have to find the balance that suits you. Be that with an Infrantry class, Vehicle or Air. At BR 27 I have hardly scratched the surface of opening up all the possible combinations of what is available in the Infrantry classes alone. Many of the posts in this forum are by people wanting to suss out and shortcut the path to the "best" combos. I fell foul of this and unlocked some gear that was a waste of time in my case. Simply because it did not "suit" me. Simplessssss

I was always one for straight up specialization, in any MMO.. Back in the EQ days, every class had it's features it made the grouping system that much better because everyone new what they brought to a fight and what they were expected to deliver.. With the emergence of "Right here, Right now" and the solo boom, roles have taken a back seat to either the one man army concept or the ability to be anything at anytime..

Honestly, I wouldn't mind them adding a "tech tree" or something to each class for us to be able to specialize even more and define our roles even more.

I play a lot of LA and I feel as though we don't have a defined role. Sure, we have jet packs but the jetpack does not have a defined role in active combat. Sure it can get us over that wall, but when bullets start flying it rarely ever helps as the speed of jetpacking away is so slow that an infiltrator could kill you with a pistol.. Tanks back up when you try to jetpack onto them and simply shoot you when it runs out.. C4 is nice, but since infiltrators can go invis, they have an easier time strapping it up to key targets in crunch time..

LA needs more options for providing something to a team. Maybe we can spec to cap faster, or even get a better "Call Reinforcement" item.. So far it seems that the public agrees that playing Heavy Assault has more to offer in a side by side comparison with Light Assault.