The writing is on the wall : LA and Infil are not used by High BRs in Squad OPS compared to Heavy

First of all feel free to link exactly where any official from SOE says that Heavy Assault is supposed to be the most played class.

This is exactly the kind of thing where us PS1 vets get to say " I told you so" to SOE, because we told them time and time again a classless system was the way to go. Classless system or rather 1 giant customizable class like PS1 is the evolution of class based systems. What SOE did was essentially take multiple steps back in evolution. It would be like if a country IRL went from the proven "world is round" knowledge back to "the world if flat" belief.

Stats and metrics are always heavily skewed. Things like organization skew them heavily. Stat padding skew them heavily. Population skew them heavily. etc etc etc

Lets see between the 2 which one represents the staple/front-line/main infantry force:

1. Rifleman
or
2. Machine gunner+Anti Tank+Anti Aircraft+super soldier


Now to those who believe the HA is a "well-rounded class" or supposed to be "The most well-rounded" class, that still isn't the case here because the HA is excelling in multiple departments that should be reserved for your perceived "Specialized" Classes.
The AI and AV potential of an HA at any given time is far too much for one class in a class based system.

So either they need to lose both AI and AV potential which would mean maybe limiting the AI weaponry available to them to just LMGs and ES heavy weapons, and then tuning down LMGs and RLs...... or Making them choose between an AI equip or AV equip seperately (like remove the Rocket launcher slot and rocket launchers would take up primary slot)

The shield change won't be enough, they need the above as well.


It also doesn't help the game has been void of sensible balance from the get-go. What I mean by this is if you broke down the TTK (on paper and in practice) of all weapons in game as well as Size of weapon vs killing power, you would come to find (sensibly) some interesting things like that sniper rifles should be OHKO'ing even on body shots...... a single rocket from a rocket pod should be OHKOing infantry.....HE tank rounds should be OHKOing infantry throughout the blast radius.... etc etc etc
You would also come to find just by comparing the fact of Resource cost + cooldown + Base and Terminal restrictions that with current given power of the HA and RLs as well as the plethora of other very powerful infantry based AV..... Things like Rocket Launcher ammo and AV mana turrets should be at the very least costing resources if not have a cooldown as well. Also think you can spam HAs and spawn from a sunderer even, you cannot spawn a tank from a sundy.


If they want to have HA be the front line well rounded soldier then either remove the Rocket launcher slot and make everything go into primary and remove some of the AI weapon options they have, OR remove Rocket launchers from HA completely and just have them have C4 and AV grenades. I think the first choice would be the best atm, as long as the shield change happens as well.


Also Note that even your environment with "Specialized" classes does not even hold true because the Infiltrator and LA do not even have a specialization. infiltrator had one in PS1, but NOT PS2. "Recon darts" is not a specialization.

What would make infiltrators specialized is if say Sniper headshots removed a players ability to be medic revived and increased their respawn timer, and maybe added a short duration to a MAX where it cannot be repaired...or even a short range/melee weapon that disabled class abilities on back hit for a short period of time.... then maybe it would have a specialization and a very useful place in a organized and competitive squad/.

Clearly you can see the logical fallacy of comparing class use to class balance right?

This OP is pointless.

I purely solo, yet my MAX K/D are about double the K/D (7.2) of my other classes (which seems to be the general rule across all players: MAX K/D is about double.) MAX's core attributes give them about half the TTK against infantry as infantry have against them, so even without support they have a much higher expected K/D. And 826 SPM / 63 KPH shows I'm not playing "very conservatively".

MAXes are brutally overpowered. The only reason they aren't as popular is players are bad at decision-making.

You're not interpreting what I said correctly, but then again I might have used vague language.

When I say that "X class scales better with numbers than Y class" I'm not referring to the size of the battle they're in; rather, I'm saying that there's a benefit to be had by massing lots and lots of X class, whereas there's little to no benefit to be had by stacking lots and lots of Y class.

Let me elaborate a little:
---> HA scales well with numbers because they're designed to get stuck in and soak up damage for other squishier troops, and they have a means to effectively damage anything they meet in the field. The more HA troopers you have in the fight the more collective damage they deal and the more collective hitpoints they have. Essentially, numbers directly increase the HA's effectiveness on the field because numbers play directly into the HA's role.

---> The infiltrator is designed to hack, motion-detect, and flank via cloak. Motion detecting and hacking are EXTREMELY valuable in a fight, but they're not roles that lend themselves to increased effectiveness in relation to the number of infiltrators present; there are generally not enough hackable objects in a base to warrant more than one or two infiltrators in the area, and a single infiltrator next to an ammo box is more than enough to light up an entire large outpost with motion darts. Flanking with cloak can benefit from numbers, but running in groups is still generally not practical for infiltrators because greater numbers attract greater attention. So you see, while Infiltrators provide an invaluable service on the battlefield, having more than a couple assigned to a squad is largely redundant.

---> The LA is designed to ambush and attack from unexpected angles. The LA is the best at this, bar none, and just a couple good LA troopers can cause all kinds of chaos and havoc within the enemy ranks. Just two or three well-played LA can break an entire enemy formation with scary efficiency. That said, LA is designed around a playstyle that emphasizes surprise, and they are not meant to slug it out face-to-face. Numbers are anathema to surprise and make the group easier to spot. For this reason numbers can actually be more of a hindrance to the LA than a help assuming equal numbers on both sides of the fight, as once an LA is spotted it has precious little in the way of usable combat advantages. Thus, once more, we have a very valuable and certainly effective class that doesn't scale well with numbers because numbers don't help the class in its intended role.

The numbers seen in the usage percentages you've dug up have nothing to do with how effective a class's ability is. Those numbers also have nothing to do with the number of situations in which a class ability is useful. They also have nothing to do with the cert-gaining potential of any of the classes in question. They have everything to do with how well the classes function when their numbers are stacked, and I hope my above elaboration has highlighted this to your satisfaction.




Either way, I'm quite tired of talking about this now, so take it all for what it's worth. X)

I hear people saying LA is a 'specialized' class. What does that mean exactly? It is supposed to be an assault class, its specialty, like the HA, should be assaulting things- to me, in a shooting game, assaulting is the primary activity and thus I would expect that the majority of people would be the assault classes because these are least specialized.

Plus, the only things LA has that others do not are 1 flashbangs (heh) and 2 jetpack. How exactly does having a jetpack make you specialized? I think the issue here is that it is not specialized, in that the only thing you cannot do when playing any other class is easily get to specific places- the weapons are no different and there are no tools. Whereas, on the other hand, Medics, HA, Engineers, and even infiltrators can be specialized (and often specialized for different roles).

In my mind, in terms of what you gain by picking a class, the LA has the least going for it period. It is my favorite, it is, IMO, the most fun- but it has by far the fewest options.

Medic- you can be a healer, or a rezzer (or a bit of both), or a shield buffer, you get free C4 since you have no need for medkits, you get some of the best weapons in the game and can always take a shotgun to do point work.

Engineer- hands down the most gadgets, turrets of different flavors with OHK (against infantry) ability fly-by-wire (oh, and a free and infinite supply as well as free and infinite ammo for them), then there is the ammo, the MAX repairing, mines, battle rifles (LA does not have these), and of course they are the default drivers/pilots.

HA- hands down the strongest (shields of different flavors), most ammo, biggest magazines by far (not to be underestimated in a game with so many players), different flavors of rocket launchers, concussion grenades (the best non-lethal and perhaps best grenade), AV grenades (excellent for MAX work).

Infiltrator- virtual monopoly of infantry OHK ability (at least, outside 5m), push button cloaking!, hacking, darts, radar.

Each of these classes can be spec'd out to perform different roles- you can be a breach medic (shotgun +heal grenades), or a long range support medic (battle rifle +shield recharge), etc. Long range or short range HA, AV focused or AI focused. MAX support engineer, driver/pilot engineer, AV engineer or AI engineer. Long range sniper or close range gank infiltrator, hacker, attacker, or trapper. True, as LA you can drop C4, perch, or drop on people with shotguns- to an extent these are 'roles' but the first is dimensionless, the second is weak, and IMO so is the third.

I know I am biased but I think the game would be far superior if ~30-40% of players were LAs and we had the ability to actually engage in meaningful mid-air combat. The thing about the strength of LAs is that, unlike other classes, they scale a bit differently- they are strong when there are few because people do not expect them and do not watch angles, they are easily balanced out by other LAs, however, in that more people in those areas means they are not as unexpected and they are engaging other LAs.

Also, IMO, LA is great because the strength of the class (sans C4) is entirely related to basic FPS skills like aiming and positioning rather than the inherent strength of a push button ability or tool.

Terrible post in general. Cherry picking all over the place.

I was suspect on it with ditching the outlier and almost gave up reading it when you said sniping is something done "without being useful in squad ops" And estimating non-sniping playtime to be 2-3% ? Sniping should be ignored by devs until it becomes useful? Those contradict. If would require dev time to 'be useful'.

I'll let someone else get in to the LA side of it but those comments are also, basically, insulting and ignorant.

Very elaborate post to slam infiltrators and LA's though - well done.

Why not talk about 5% combat medic use? Or how the engie is played just as much as the heavy?

Presenting stats should be done in a neutral fashion and let people draw their own conclusion.

Not saying both classes couldn't use some help but this presentation is just...odd. Aside from Max would you want to see all classes used equally? Not going to happen.

Heavies are the most popular and likely will stay that way because they are the base class of the game - everything else is a deviation and requires a certain type of player to dedicate time to it and enjoy it.

Skimmed through the original post, not sure what 'writing is on the wall' which implies something is about to happen?

This^

And of course it was always intended that the HA is the most played class. It is the frontline soldier. With everyone else only playing support.

I can't even start to explain how bad an example this is.

1. You have five data points and discard one as an outlier. Every knows since secondary school that you need minimum of seven valid points to see a trend.
2. There is far too little data to even start considering conclusions, most studies require a minimum of 30 points. Besides that, you have only included data which you deem from "not farming outfits" So you actually selected your data.
3. "the trend of fewer LAs/Infiltrators in outfits as average BR increases is pretty damning." That is completely made up. Looking at your five points of data, there is no correlation to LAs and battle rank. You are also stretching it if you say there is a correlation with Infs, especially as the BR 90 one uses more than the BR 70. That's still not taking into account the ridiculously bad sample. On another note, this supposed trend goes against you saying that the infiltrator and the LA uses more skill to be effective, as surely the high BRs will be able to take advantage of the higher skilled playing? You then go on to say that even new players work out that the extra health is useful, but surely that's obvious. You'd do anything you can when you're new and suck to try and make you survive a little longer. Until I was BR 20, I never set foot outside another class because of the increased health pool.
4. Finally, for the front line pusher and the class most like that in other games, it doesn't even have twice the amount of the infiltrator, the least played class (excluding max) in the game and significantly less than the LA. Surely that shows that the HA is fine?

Light Assault is my favorite class

Fine, I'll bite at some of this trolling.

I have a fully certed LA and a Fully certed HA. I was running a platoon just yesterday somewhere on the SE areas of Indar (high cliffs all that). We were attacking a 3 capture point tower.

I had the platoon split into two forces. One to the north of the tower on a bottlenecked roadway. One to the west of the tower overlooking from a cliff.

• North group orders: Hold that bottleneck, let their tanks smash against you for a while. When it dies down start pushing south. I want medics and heavies.
• West group orders: I want engies and bursters on those sundys (very difficult place to pull more to), everyone else is Light Assault. Get in groups of 5-10 and jetpack down that mountain to the capture point.

Once the offense started going well we became primarily HA on the grounds outside the tower. When offense began to grind and stall trying to get in what did I order? You guessed it. Pull LAs...everyone. I want a push of LAs over the top of that wall. Go straight to the spawn level.... The tower defense folded like paper and suddenly heavies and medics could get in via the ground again.

Does any of that make sense? Do you get the role that Light Assaults played here? Could this have been done without them? Could I have done it with *just* light assaults and not the heavies?

I'll say it again: Stop all the whining. The Light Assault class is not only fine, it's awesome. It is not however the primary shock troop in the game. That is the Heavy. Stop being bhuthurt like there is something wrong with the LA. There isn't.

Still waiting for someone to link an official statement saying that HA is supposed to be the most played.

If it is actually intended that way, fine. Then it needs to see a nerf over all or RLs need to take up the primary slot (delete the RL equip slot). If they are intended to be the spammed infantry class of choice they should either be a straight rifleman or a swiss army knife. Not an super AT specialized heavy machine gunning super soldier with better survivability then everyone else.

And HA's getting more use is a bad thing because... ?

If more people want to use them, let them. It's their game, darnit.

That will make people all the more surprised, confused and helpless when an LA jumps them, or a cloaker picks them off.

There are TWO kinds of people in this world.

1. Those that can extrapolate conclusions from incomplete data

You do not need an official statement. Nobody is going to hand you a brain with built in logic on a silver platter and tell you to pop it in your skull. I already explained this but here it is again:

1. 5 classes not including max. Distributed evenly that's 20%.
2. Does it make sense that every one should be distributed *exactly* at 20%. (don't try to answer, I'll do it for you because...um hard.) ** NO. ** Something will be at 21+%, something at 19-%.
3. Of the 5 classes, should the non-combat support classes like medic and engie be the most? No.
4. Should we have sniperfest 2014 and have infiltrators be the most? No.
5. That leaves HA and LA.

One *is* going to have more use than the other. You won't find that written down anywhere. It's logical. So which should it be?
Well unless you want to go play "Tribes" where jetpacks are the primary function of the game then it's going to be the HA.

So I've answered your question (you may not think so of course). Answer mine:

What is it you are all hurt about regarding the light assault? If we all agreed to stop playing Planetside2 and instead all agreed to play NexKnYn-Side2. Besides the obvious rule of "you get to win all the time, not us", what else would you want? Spell it out. What is your problem, man?

But when you solo are you never healed by engis?

MAXs are certainly tougher (although they cost resources too - and personally I'd rather they'd double their current toughness, but halve their current DPS), but in most situations where I'm getting a nice K/D ratio with them I am getting a lot of support even if I'm technically "solo".

Well if you look at the % HA are about right for "evenly" played (i.e. 17%), it is that other classes are out of wack.


(if you looked at the data the OP didn't include most likely engi and maybe medics are more played than HAs - as there is 50% left for those 3 classes and he's said MAX numbers are low too)

^ Biased and emotional post full of fallacies. But nice try.

If the devs intended for Heavy Assault to be the most played class, they WOULD have said so officially. If you don't think so then I suggest you find a way to be less.. i dunno... ignorant? naive?

Also I see reading comprehension is hard for you, but as I also said, if they did in fact intend that then fine. Then balance must ensue because the power of the class is not justified for something that is spammable/ supposed to be the most played. It either needs to have all departments (AI+AV/etc) available in a single loadout like now but those options should be weaker then currently, OR it needs to have only a single department (AI / AV / etc) available in a single loadout (llike making RLs take up primary slot and deleting current rocket launcher slot)
Also just keep in mind, just because it is supposed to be well rounded or most played class, and just because the namje is "HEAVY" Assault does not mean it needs to have the most tank/survivability. "HEAVY" could easy and simply determine the fact they have the ability to carry heavier weapons (like faction specific ones and LMGs) then other classes. As it currently stands, even if heavy assault lost it's class shield entirely and it's class ability was the fact it can equip an AI powerhouse weapon AND an AV weapon (RLs) in the same loadout... as well as... its supposed to be the most played well rounded class right? Well the shield kind of adds a specialization to it (IE survivability) ... and engineer doesn't have a toggle on class ability either so losing the shield wouldn't destroy balance either but instead help it.....so thats another possible option

Also Medic and engineer have plenty of combat ability.

If anything LA and infiltrator are the only true classes lacking a real specialization.

"Specialized" typically implies Effectiveness too. Medic and MAX are about as specialized as it gets, and they pay off way more cert-wise in a much wider variety of Territories at the same time. INF & LA are not less used b/c they're "specialized", they're less used because even the things they specialize at, a H.A., MBT, or ESF can do just as well OR BETTER.

Dear lawd man.

Do you understand logic. Logic. Math. Thought?

Ok let me logic this out one more time for you.

Unless I am mistaken the devs did NOT say HA should be the most played class. They did NOT say LA should be the most played class. They did NOT say MEDIC should be the most played class. They did not in fact say any class should be the most played class.

Are you then implying that *because they did not designate a most played class* that *all classes are to be played equally 20% each*. Not everything is spelled out for you man. The rest of us here seem to get something that you don't. Why is that?

Like I said before....

There are TWO kinds of people in this world:

1. Those that can extrapolate conclusions from incomplete data

You are apparently in the second group.

HA is the standard shock trooper and should be the most common.

LA & Infil are 2 types of LIGHT flank/harrying troops, something armies use in smaller sizes since... forever.

You only need 1 infil for sensor darts & hacking. You only want ~2 LA in a squad to flank the enemies front from other angles.

The numbers look exactly like they should.