The Perception of Power

Hello fellow meat bags,

I would like to now bore you all with my "theory of planetside balance", or "theory of mix-unit shooter balance".

Over the years, we have mostly become used to games that are infantry vs infantry, with the exception being games like BF, Homefront (which didn't do well so many never played it) and other such mixed-unit shooters.

In an infantry only shooter, balance is supposed to remain consistent between any two players. This is the base of an infantry shooter, everyone has the same chance.

A mixed-unit shooter like PS2 is different though.

A single tank vs a single infantry is going to be unbalanced, and it should be. It's a mechanized asset fighting a lone infantry. A lone tank vs an A2G equipped fighter is probably boned, he does not have the tools to successfully fight off air unless that pilot is dumb enough to get in-front of the main gun.

See, it's like rock paper scissors, but with even more variables. Any given match up between two individual players is going to be unbalanced due to class, vehicles, weapons used, etc.

The balance emerges in the team. When the classes and vehicles are combined into a unified unit working together, THEN the balance emerges.

Like a 5 man MOBA team. Any one match up in that game could be totally one sided, but when all 5 players face the other 5, that is where balance exists (assuming decent team comp).

So we should not, and realistically cannot, use 1 v 1 battles to determine where balance exists. We must compare squad vs squad, platoon vs platoon, faction vs faction and then the balance will emerge (or not, and we'll need to fix it.)

When you face your hard counter, that's the point where you call out over VOIP for assistance.

That still doesn't change the fact that air power controls the flow of battle.

As it does in most battles.

Air superiority is a big deal for a reason in warfare.

I'm saying there's not anything wrong with that, because you must look at the battlefield, not the balance between any two given roles.

My feelings on air are thus:
ESFs should be air superiority fighters, they should not dominate ground units as thoroughly as they do. To me, Liberators should be the dominant A2G force. ESFs should counter Liberators chilling at the ceiling shelling, and ground-based AA should be able to take down ESFs. As it stands, ESFs are sort of jack-of-all-trades at the moment; I think they need to be pigeonholed into the "fighter" role a bit more, leaving "bomber" for liberators, which take three-man crews anyway.

Which is why you get air to counter air. That was kinda the OP's point.

I think a lot of the issue is that a lot of PS2 players are lone wolves who don't use VOIP, so they approach the balance problem from a faulty position to begin with.

I happen to be a long time shooter player and an ex 40 man raid guild officer and tank, so the idea of organization, support, and leadership come somewhat naturally to me (though I hate leading with a passion).

A lot of the people complaining are probably not use to organized play as much.

Right, but the current problem is that ESFs also fill the bomber role too effectively. In a perfect world, AA > ESFs > Liberators > ESFs. A single ESF shouldn't be able to ignore/destroy AA as easily as it does - an ESF pilot should have to call in a liberator for a bombing run. That liberator, in turn, should then have to rely on the ESFs to keep the skies clear of enemy fighters long enough for it to get in, bomb the AA, and get out. As it stands, if an ESF pilot takes AA fire he goes, "Oh, that's annoying," and proceeds to unleash a volley of rocket pods and destroy it before going back to spamming rockets on infantry.

The crux of the issue is that right now, air units don't really have to work together. They can wreck things singlehandedly.

The problem with Air, is that folks are jealous that they can't fly... and when they try to, they get pwnt...
Thus CRIMOAR!

I think the effectiveness of an ESF with rocket pods is being a bit overstated. Yes they are powerful. Yes, they absolutely can burn down a cluster of infantry in the open. So can an MBT, or correctly loaded sunderer or lightning. They can also kill a tank. So can an MBT or correctly loaded sunderer, or lightning. However, without a sizable cert investment, rocketpod ammo is very limited, meaning that one cannot hang around and completely obliterate every living thing around a base as they are some times portrayed as being able to do. I agree that a lot of AA weapons are underpowered at the moment, and that using AA weapons in general is unrewarding in the EXP department. Yes, something needs to be done to fix that, but ESFs are not the almighty fist of Mars himself as they are made out to be.

Air superiority is important/powerful because it allows people to bring in true destructive forces like bombers, it also prevents your adversaries from using there bombers on you effectively if at all.

Lib's should hold that roll of bombers, ESF should hold the roll of air superiority.

Instead ESF's are "everything" superiority and are there own bombers, there own air superiority, there own EVERYTHING. Libs being the bombers are mostly just a "meh" thing because that Lib could just as easily be TWO rocket podders which would be much more frightening.

I used to orchestrate 3 loaded Gal's for Gal drops in PS1, We'd run armor columns packed with Vanguards and Skyguards. We had set strat's of who's going in a door first/second/etc who's hacking, OS usage orders, and so on.

I've raided in Vanilla WoW, and I've played competitive clanning in FPS's since HL1 mods like Firearms and TFC (never cared for CS and the lot).

Suffice it to say I have been around the block, and have worked with a team effort. The issue is that ESF's take the entire team concept and throw it out the window, rocket pod equipped ESF's turn the game into "who can throw more rocket pods at eachother" and not much else. If you run to much AA to counter the swarm of rocket pods you will get swarmed on the ground due to the insane amount of dedicated AA required to deal with all the ESF's and Libs.
The entire idea of running an armor column with AA support from something like a skyguard is dead unless you drive around with a sundy full of AA MAX's and stop/wait for them every time they have to shoot. The entire concept of organized ground play is completely trumped by lonewolfing ESF's if/until you can just use Soviet human wave tactics and get a Sundy hidden in a place hard to hit from the air and then you can fight indoors away from the air, but by then its mostly just a spawn camp with no real fighting.

ESF's should be aerial predators first and foremost with its G2A stuff being heavily secondary. They should be hunting other ESF's, Libs, and Gal's. Gal's should be much more useful and bailing out of a Gal should automatically give you a parachute effect, though I'd also like to see a Gal close air support modification to make it a "super lib" of sorts, or perhaps give it repair, rearm, spawn, etc like a Sundy. Perhaps give Gal's actual bombing capabilites with large AOE's.

Though as it stands now with current ESF's they are one man army machines, that only get insanely better if used as a group, but you don't really have to just send as many rocket pods at the enemies as you can and hope that your rockets blot out the sun.

You have clearly never seen a liberator with a zephyr or dalton WRECK an amp station courtyard.

Frankly I have yet to see an amp station courtyard worth wrecking.

There is no doubt a Dalton Lib will wreck armor stuck in a tight area better than rocket podders (in this situation) but at the same time give it two rocket podders or one Lib with a Dalton the end results are the same the armor gets blown up and things move along. If the end result is the same for the same amount of people being used (two) then at that point we are mostly talking about efficiency and TTK and not really effectiveness not to mention the Rocket Podders would be much more threatening to people actively trying to stop them or if the AMP station gets out any aircraft of its own.

I'm not hating on the Lib here it does its job rather well. But 2 Rocket Pods vs 1 Lib(w/1 Gunner) in general they will both get the same jobs done with the rocket podders being abit more flexible in who and what they can target, but having slower TTK against a large group of enemies.

Rocket podders more flexible?
What can't a liberator shoot at?

As a pilot, I wouldn't mind making ESFs less A2G effective and make Libs more A2G effective. I think it would balance out the game a bit more and make the ESFs less of a jack of all trades. I'd also support multiple rocket pod ammunition times just like the tanks. Then ESFs could only rocket pod either ground vehicles or soldiers and not both.

As a Planetside 1 Reaver pilot and a Planetside 2 ESF pilot, I can agree to this.

Is that a problem of the players or the game?

Its a legitimate question.
If the game is designed to encourage and reward lone wolf play (ESF, MBT, Lightning), why wonder that it happens?

Do those people approach the balance problem form a faulty position if the game is designed on that premise? I think not.

Air Vehicles, Libs can technically engage them just like MBT's can technically engage them but a Lib is not going to go targeting ESF's any time soon.

By grabbing a Zephyr the Lib doesn't do "great" damage to armor, it CAN damage armor but against a Zephyr a tank can actually "take it".
Grabbing a Dalton the splash damage is significantly worse and clearing out infantry groups.
There is a real trade-off to be made, do I pwn armor or do I pwn softies? They can "attack" anything they want but realistically depending on the weapon you are using there is a "preferred target type" if you will. Where as an ESF sees all ground targets pretty much equally.

Thats the difference in flexibility.

This is a team game. If the other team has a bunch of air and ground troops, and you have just ground troops, you SHOULD lose. Ideally if faced with a bunch of rocket podding ESF's and Libs bombarding the open areas, you call in some dedicated A2A ESF's. A2A missiles on ESF's have been proven to send aircraft running with their lives just by locking on, let alone firing them.

People who complain about this are simply being out manned and outgunned. There is no shame in admitting your base got overrun by the enemy, especially when they have air support and you don't. It happens.

I don't think most ESF pilots who carry rocket pods consider other aircraft their "preferred target type". Rocketpods do work against liberators, but then again a dalton will oneshot an esf. I do wholeheartedly agree that the walker AA gun you can mount on the tail of the liberator needs a buff and I have said so in other threads.

I have also supported the idea of rocketpods being split into HE and AP to make ESF have to choose between A2A, Anti Infantry, and Anti armor roles.

I do think you are understating the effectiveness of the dalton vs infantry and the zephyr vs armor a tad though