[Vehicle] The harasser imbalance

I did take this into consideration, but the vulcans accuracy is not as bad as you make it out to be, the actual stat for it is 1.1-1.1, meaning it doesnt actually lose any accuracy at any point, the mjolnirs is 0.9-1.5, losing a ton of accuracy after the first burst. This is aside from that we've already established that the very nature of the projectile type massively impacts accuracy of the mjolnir without even looking at the accuracy stat.

Vaseline is key.

I've never been good with these vehicle weapon analysis discussions and performance threads. Why? Cause when the rubber hits the pavement, all that speculation, all that analysis goes out the fraking window. This game is not a 1v1 scenario. There is no duel at dawn, with 40 spectators and 2 guys walking away from each other for 12 steps, and then, 180, aim and BAM!

That's not this game.

The bottom line in my experience is this: If the driver can out-drive everything trying to kill the car and the gunner can hit his target first, there is a good chance of the crew winning the duel, long enough to get killed by Wrel's Chosen.

The gun actually doesn't matter.

Of course, this is only my opinion, pure speculation based on my limited harasser experience and time in vehicles across all factions.

Here's an illustrative documentary supporting my opinion:



And another one on the Vulcan harasser, 6 of them to be exact, versus me and a gunner in a Vanny and 1 harasser. So 12 people vs 4 people.




I tell ya, the gun doesn't matter. What matters is who hits first and how the crews work through the fight.

Not sure this idealistic "the driver and gunner is all that matters" is very useful man, in the end of the day, the only true metric of balance is raw data, and currently all the raw data points to the mjolnir coming up massively short on effectiveness by comparison, from both a weapon stat analysis point and a player use data point. Obviously skill can make up for large gaps in actual weapon balance, but that doesnt change the fact that the clearly huge imbalance here between harasser short range DPS weapons is staggeringly large.

Yeah, my perspective speaks to the point of view about actual game combat engagements and how a crew assesses the potential results of the engagement in real time, in real action, in game-reality. These imbalance threads often lead people to believe they can't win a fight because a spreadsheet analysis thread told them the weapon they're rockin will lose. That's the perspective I'm addressing.

If you're only looking at data on a spreadsheet, where relevant combat details are irrelevant, than have at it. To me those discussions have no impact on engagement reality, unless you're a dev with access to said spreadsheet and you're tweaking those numbers cause you were wronged by the veteran community for too many years.

When the rubber hits the pavement, it doesn't matter that Dalton will 2HK a Harasser while his Halberd will 8HK the Liberator. What matters is can the driver out drive the pilot and can the gunners actually hit their targets? Your spreadsheet will tell you that the Dalton isn't balanced against the Halberd-H. And I will tell you, from my experience shooting aircraft with ground vehicle weapons, to go try it anyway and see what happens.

These imbalance threads always have 2 main conclusions: 1 focuses on the raw data in the spreadsheet and 2 focuses on conclusions people draw from speculation which impacts how they experience the game and harasser fun.

Happy speculating!

If only we had stats that incorporated everything, from the rubber hitting the asphalt to the skill of the gunner and it's opponents.
Oh wait we do have that, the performance stats. These are the stats of everyone playing and using a weapon. If all weapons were balanced then even with asymetrical balance each weapon would achieve about the same performance stats.
And the Vulcan has 20 to 25+% more vehicle kills per user per day, and 3x more users. It requires less skill to get that rubber asphalt nonsense to a particular height. So it is OP.

Unless ofcourse you can claim you can easily win from tanks while using the Canister for example... after all, its the skill that determines the outcome not the weapon right?

Uhm this is the kpu vehicles for harasser long range weapons

https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,6123&startDate=2019-01-03&endDate=2019-06-11

nc is ahead.... are we going to nerf the enforcer too then ?

While the Enforcer definitely does have its peaks, take the average of any month or year and the Enforcer is going to differ in the single percentages, below 5%. A far cry from the 20 to 25+% the Vulcan gets.

Also the Enforcer is the least used if the 3 long range weaponry, often not even making the 25 users on a day. A single pro can have a huge effect on the stats of each day.
Compare that the the CQC weapons where it is mostly around the 100 players even 300+ for the TR there is no contest for the Vulcan being OP while the Enforcer can be proven to be barely better than its contemporaries.

The fact that you try to pass this whataboutism off as a legitimate concern is pathetic. And you also try to prove your point on a single metric, rather than looking at the whole. Thats misleading 101 right there.

I'm not trying to pass anything... just considering your point of view.

I have more than 6500 kill on the vulcan for harasser, and if before the last nerf it was actually too strong i think it is now in a good spot.

Anyway, if you nerf the tr harrasser you better buff the tr mbt secondary.

https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...06399&startDate=2018-10-11&endDate=2019-05-05

because vulcan on prowler sucks... actually also halberd on prowler sucks it seems.

Considering how bad is performing the secondary of the prowler i think we found the reason behind the higher pull of harasser from tr.

No again you are considering a single stat without its context.

The Prowler has the highest DPS main MBT gun and two shots per magazine, giving it a higher chance to finish off a target than it's secondary gun. That means the secondary gun scores less vehicle kills.

Also did I say less vehicle kills? Again you posted the KPU, not the V KPU. you also posted the NC Halberd SE that has no stats at all rather than the normal halberd.

Then I checked further and you've been cherry-picking. You put the Enforcer with the CQC variants of the other two factions. If I add the Mjolnir you see it performing slightly worse than the Vulcan. The Aphelion also scores about as good as the Vulcan btw, just so you know.

Also almost all weapons there are very close together, with the exception of the NS variants. Since the NS variants are equal across all factions it has to mean the vehicle its mounted on is the culprit, IE the Prowler main gun gets the kill more easily.

And lastly you said that the TR pull more Harassers because the Prowler sucks due to its swcondary underperforming. But when you look at the stats the TR pulls just as many Prowlers for HEAT, HE and AP as the other faction equivalents. ON TOP OF THAT they pull 3x more Vulcan Harassers. So your logic is flawed.

So, got any more twisted whataboutisms? I know that Trump managed to get elected for president based on whataboutism but that doesnt mean you get to get away with it.

listen relax... I'm not fighting with you... I simply checking the data with you.

You are right... i submitted kpu instead of vehicle kpu.

Here is the right chart not so different
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...06399&startDate=2018-12-27&endDate=2019-06-27

ap shells perform more or less the same across all mbt, so the double shot theory doesn't seems to work to justify the bad performances of the secondary gun of the prowler.

https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,3460&startDate=2018-12-27&endDate=2019-06-27

Anyway returning to mijornir aphelion vulcan thing: mjonir perform worse than the other two, so could use some improvements.
I'm against to nerf the vulcan further, would become unusable and tr have no real alternatives

If you want to improve or nerf other weapons go ahead, but this thread has shown the Harasser Vulcan clearly overperforming the VS and NC counterparts. So either you come up with a viable buff to the Aphelion and Mjolnir or the Vulcan needs a solid hit with the nerf hammer. Ofcourse a middle ground with a small nerf to the Vulcan and a buff of its counterparts is probably the best way to go.

sometimes is 15% better and only vs mijonir... aphelion still better vs infantry and air targets... so i would not call it "op"

KPU , aphelion wins
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02898&startDate=2018-12-28&endDate=2019-06-28

KPU Vehicle , vulcan wins , apehlion pretty close
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02898&startDate=2018-12-28&endDate=2019-06-28

Aircraft KPU, aphelion wins
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02898&startDate=2018-12-28&endDate=2019-06-28

As has been pointed out already that "close" gap is on average more than 20% better in VKPU. Also there are 3x more users on the TR Harasser while there arent any less Prowler users so no dodge there. The Vulcan is much easier to use and more powerful than its counterparts. There is no doubt about that and you basically admitted this when you went "oh but what about X and Y" trying to change the discussion.

i did not trying to change discussion, I simply searched for a reason about the higher number of pulls of harassers from tr.
Anyway you are too polemic and i don't care to discuss this any further.
Let's agree to disagree.

If you needed a reason for higher Harasser pulls by checking the Prowler usage, then why would you pick out the VKPU stats for MBT secondaries and not the MBT primary uniques? And you made the mistake of picking an unused NC Halberd variant twice, and used the KPU stats a few times instead of the VKPU stats and you continuously say that there is "little difference" even though the Vulcan scores clearly much better than any of it's counterparts?

The reason why you think I'm polemic is because you consistenly come with whataboutisms like the few I mentioned (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) and use single stats out of context to "prove" it. For gods sake man you tried to pass off the Enforcer being ever so slightly better as its counterparts as the exact same situation as the Vulcan.

We're well past the discussion of IF the vulcan is overpowered, we know it is, there is a mountain of data proving it. We're at the stage where this is more of a PSA to the devs that there is a monster of an imbalance in their game that needs addressing ASAP.

So you're saying that the bloom of .1 per round is just a dummy stat and the Vulcan has no CoF increase throughout the 90 round magazine? Are you certain of that?

Secondly. There is literally no reason to ever hold left click on the boombox. If you are tap firing it, you don't ever get into the wildly erratic shots and it's pretty simplistic to do. We ran one for probably 8-10 hours over the weekend and my gunner had no issues with the grenades going wonky EXCEPT at ranges that the Vulcan is literally unusable anyway, which is pertinent here. Upside of the Boombox is that the arc allows you to fire from cover much better than the Vulcan.

Yes, I am certain of that, the stat is 1.1-1.1, it starts at 1.1, and is capped at 1.1, it does not increase, you can test this in game and see that it will not decrease in accuracy after reaching full ROF.

We've already established that there is a huge disparity in performance, personally, Im not going to entertain any more "ive used it and here is my (insert super small sample size subjective "i feel like it works" experience here)" comments with a response, its not scientific, its not helpful, and more often than not, it isnt even true, and usually a case of shilling for the benefit of the persons main faction. The data has been put out there, in so many forms that its not even up for debate anymore.

I guess we just need to fill the game with more no-skill weapons then, or nerf the last good thing TR has going, lol.