Surprised by forum reaction to lib update

I don't like rock-paper-scissors any more than I like rock-paper-liberator.

I like counterplay a lot and want more of it in this game, but the biggest offender against this was the Liberator.

I am surprised you do not see that.

If you do not like rock-paper-scissors then you would've pushed for things like making AV weaponry half decent against infantry, AI half decent against AV. Supporting the nerf of the liberator weaponry is supporting rock-paper-scissors gameplay.

The only thing lib needed changing in was its ridiculous armor. It's versatility is what made it fun. Same went for the Harasser, which got butchered, same goes for the ESF, which got butchered, and same goes for tanks, which got butchered during game update 2 and continuously is receiving the short end of the stick.

I'd rather have versatile units, excelling at one particular role and being average otherwise, to what we have now. The lib was the last of the vehicles to have that versatility, and it was now butchered, just like all the previous vehicles.

I am surprised you do not see that.

From what I understand off the forums (and as a part time lib gunner and full time skyguard gunner myself) the tweaks simply raised the skill floor of the lib.
Dalton now requires much more skill to use and is now dedicated AV: since the direct hit buff, smaller AOE and lower ammo cap.
Shredder is now a precision weapon, I still can use it to kill infantry (maximum zoom, screw thermals) and sometimes I get the odd air kill from another lib who is literally begging for death by flying so close with it's top to us. It's harder, but more fair.
Duster still gathering dust since the start.
Zephyer is now like an easy-mode dalton, much more forgiving and versatile, but still has the skill floor raised, and a deadeye zeypher is less rewarding than a deadeye dalton.
The ammo nerf means you now need to be precise with your shots, another difficulty booster. It also forces you to resupply every once in a while, which while not the most exciting was definitely something that prevents the liberator from being the "top-dog" dominator.
The increased vulnerability gives a heightened sense of risk-vs-reward. Combine with the belly gun changes, it now means you have to low-dive in close to secure a kill and risk death (just like how any land vehicle needs to go in close an risk destruction in order to scrap a damaged tank, harasser or sundy in any large fight), or need to work your sniping skills with your gun. A "git gud" argument if you will.

If you honestly believe that the liberator should be "top-dog" and dominate the field simply because it's a gunship, then you have no conception of competitive balance.

The liberator is still a tank murdering machine. It's just that only the best lib crews can make it one now.

No, no it is not. I don't want my AP rounds to have splash damage. Why? Because you shouldn't be able to do everything at once. I support adding vehicle loadout changing. I support counterplay like daltons against ESFs, tank rounds against Liberators, C4 against tanks, etc.

However, I don't support "jack of all trades, master of everything" weapons.

You can learn to properly fly the liberator now. Learn to depend on friendly support like other vehicles and learn your limitations.

But don't worry, we have these for you.



For when crutches are too hard to use.

No, giving AP rounds splash prevents you from being helpless in situation you did not equip for, and hence enhance fun and functionality. I still remember a video where a vanguard had to backtrack from a storming infantry. What a pathetic sight.

You support rock-paper-scissors gameplay. This is evident in the fact that you support all of the vehicular weaponry change. This is what you want and this is what PS2 has. And this is precisely the reason this game is no fun gameplay wise and will fail. Give it time, you will see.

By the way, you don't want jack of all trades in your game? Force heavies to carry either rocket launcher or a LMG. Force ESFs to only choose one weapon, instead of two.

That's intentional exaggeration about the difficulty, right?
OP is either the worst Lib gunner I've ever heard of, or just BSing.
"virtually impossible" my foot, you just need to practice and then not a lot.

I think the way to deal with the ammo reserve problem is to slightly increase the base, but greatly increase the amount per rank of capacity you get.

As for nose guns, I still think the TB needs a bit of a nerf somewhere and the other options need significant buffs. If Vector/Spur are 0% and TB is 100%, balance would be in the 75-90% range I think.
This would lead to a decrease in liberator performance. A large enough ammo capacity buff may cancel this out or else more power would need to be applied to another part of the liberator, eg tail guns.

The lib is closer to balanced right now than it has ever been as far as I can tell. The overall trend of balance in the lib, like most other things, has been improving while swinging either side of balanced.

This. The update has been FAIR. When lib pilots saw what was incoming with the nerf we already predicted that a change of play style was needed. Yeah, liberators are terrible now at taking down infantry, with Bulldog nerf incoming, it's just going to get worse until Duster gets a slight ammo velocity buff.
I totally echo what Mianera is saying. ADAPT. What have I been doing post nerf? Armor hunting. Infantry kills are a bonus but not the primary target. Keep moving, get in and out.
The one side effect that this nerf and the incoming Phase 2 nerf is that new pilots/gunners are going to think libs are just plain terrible, which unfortunately is going to lower the amount of new players entering the skilled piloting/gunning pool.

Was it the one where the Vanguard was rolling backward down a mountain from a LA?

The Liberator is fine. Ammo needs tweaking, Zepher needs looking at, and the Duster is still bad.

You summed it pretty well. I have the same observations. It is not ABOUT the Liberator.
Liberator is clear- it needed some nerfs- resistances reverted and ammo halved and may be MAX resistance vs shredder improved. It is overnerfed now.


It is about the PROCESS. The same PROCESS was done with Harassers. Next is MBTs. IGNORE vehicle name/type here, it is all about the PROCESS.


The game moves at great speed to Infantryside 2. It is sad really because there are more better FPS games around that are focused on Infantry fights. Logically FPS players play the better games not PS2, as result you get less populace, server merges and less money for SOE.

It is not that hard to fix- keep all vehicles deadly to infantry, reduce infantry reward to 10XP, remove K/D ratios, hide kills, separate medals- allow vehicles to get medals only by destroying other vehicles. Reduce all competitive FPS elements. The game is advertised as combined arms game not as FPS. Focusing on teamplay, cooperation and coordination between classes and vehicles,add more deeper game goals, more strategy and more platoon/outfit perks would do wonders on the population.


Their marketing guy that told them that FPS have greater market share and they should focus on FPS elements totally neglected that PS 2 cannot be good competitive FPS game ever because of the scale, client-side hit detection and the randomness. So the FPS hordes of gamers wont ever play it.

The same guy also missed that most of the PS2 Players are working adults in their 20-30s not teens. The said adults are not impressed by KD ratios and have no reactions to compete in FPS game, the game should be more teamplay less MLG shooter.

If anything I really enjoy how they reduce their profits in the most profane way possible. It is pathetic and funny at the same time. Merge more servers till you have only enough population for single server.
Meanwhile I would just switch to another more promising game when finally MBTs get nullified as well.

Yeah, I think it was even a video you and Klypto made. Its purpose was something other, but this really did stick me in the eye.

Thats a problem with C4 being too strong against tanks than AP needing splash, even if you had HEAT or HE equipped it plays out the same especially with LAs since they're usually in the air where splash doesn't matter. Nerf C4 so 2 bricks takes 1/2 or 3/4 of a tanks health and you will stop seeing such ridiculous sights and HA and Maxes can go back to being the AV infantry options again.

No, C4 is fine. The problem lies with the fact that tanks do not have adequate defenses, such as coaxial machine guns, decent splash on all of their main turrets or just a defense option against such things like C4. One can argue as well that the lack of directional damage is a factor.

I've been stormed by a small group of heavies before, using decimators. I had to backtrack in my Prowler. Its just wrong.

Tank Buster + Shredder + Bulldog Liberator is still beast mode. Thermals on both so it's not like we are 500 meters away here; we are within 300 ... usually closer. Shredder has enough ammo to kill several lightnings and sunderers before getting more ammo. Bulldog has a stupid amount of ammo. Granted these are highly upgraded but by now any serious lib owner has done so. Shredder is still great against enemy aircraft so you don't NEED an AA tailgun.

Played it many times after the lib nerfs. Gunning a lib is still the single best boost to my KDR and SPM. We still farm the Higby out of small fights. One or two people attempting G2A AA is not a leathal threat. Only time we die is when 3+ people actually coordinate and try, we get caught off guard by some AP tank on a hill, or better pilots show up.

Lib is still a powerful vehicle; especially shredder libs.

I'm getting hit A LOT by lockdown Prowlers lately. Not sure I'm liking the revert to MBT main gun damage. That probably could have waited for a subsequent patch to see if it was necessary.

Seems a lot of the NC and VS Lib pilots are getting torn up by lock down prowlers as of late.

Honestly, I think it's in a good place currently...

But that may be because I usually don't fight infantry much.

Only thing that needs reverting is the ammo capacity on the main guns, they run out way too fast, and are usually the first weapon to run completely out of ammo.

Shredder seems ok on ammo, Dalton is WAY too low however. It needs a 50% boost in ammo capacity up to 60 rounds, not 40.

Nerfing it from 120 to 40 was WAY too much. Typical over nerf.