Spitfires should do 100 flat damage.

They only have 50m of range & have tons of downsides.

Instead of 100@10m,50@50m it should be 100@10m,100@50m

Yeah! tons of downsides!
Like the fact that it has enough health that most non-LMG weapons don't have enough bullets to kill a player. Oh wait, that's an advantage.
Like the fact that it already adds an easy 15 to 30% DPS to your weapon, more if you are unskilled! Oh wait, that's a pretty big advantage and you want to make that bigger.
Like the fact that it's a better warning system against flanks as it tells you exactly when your enemy is on the right level and position to be attackable by your Spitfire. Damn another advantage.
Like the fact that the Spitfire is practically the only tool that can damage and potentially kill enemies without the owner present. Oh another advantage.

The only real disadvantage that the Spitfire seems to have is the fact that you can carry only a limited amount at a time. And that's pretty justified considering everything you get back for it. It's a tool, not a mine that you paid resources to place and works a single time.

I love my Spitfire, named it Spitz. I wouldn't mind if it did 100 Flat damage. It would piss of a lot of LA Players as they Hover in the air.

Downsides
- One use only before resupply (major factor)
- Immobile (easy target)
- Large (easy target)
- Kinda bad reactivity
- Aim is quite inefficient on partially covered targets
- (Very) Low DPS (I facetank them with an engie, without nanowave)
- Not that sturdy (I destroy them in the process with less than a primary weapon mag at any decent range)


Advantages
- Autonomous (major factor)
- Alerts unaware people from flankers
- Repairable
- They don't always "look" where they seem to look on their animation, which can be confusing
- Usable as a cover (despite not being that sturdy)

Uses
- Alarm
- Guarding tool for capture points and the like (or deployed Prowler/AMS)
- That's it

In any fight situation, you're better using the other 2 manned turrets. They've better range, are sturdier, have either a better DPS or a better alpha damage, have more precision, and can also be used as a cover more efficiently.

So I really don't find this turret worth using 90% of the time.

Just a minor correction. You can cert the amount you can carry before resupply up to 4.

That's better then Was it from the start or modified with a patch note I may have missed ? I don't recall that at all :/

"not worth using"?

Let's compare things that can be compared. The AV turret is a more niche weapon that's used to snipe infantry at longer ranges or to combat tanks. So it's role is completely different from the Spitfire. The AI turret can be compared to the Spitfire as they both have similar goals to accomplish.
The AI turret makes the user stationary, it doesn't work without the user present, it does partially protect the user but it also removes the ability for the user to use other weapons like mines, grenades or his primary while he's holding the turret.
The Spitfire allows the player to run around freely. The Spitfire adds DPS. If the enemy engages the turret first your enemy is likely not to have enough bullets left to kill you before reload, giving you a massive edge in combat. Who wouldn't want to start off any battle with an enemy who's slightly damaged and has to reload before he can engage you? It's a no-brainer! If your enemy engages you the Spitfire still adds a nice 15 to 30% DPS, more if you aren't that good at aiming. 15% extra DPS to any weapon would make people go insane with OP posts, even if the DPS is temporary. But if the Engineer can dump a turret that does the same it's suddenly UP? Anyway, as long as your opponent is attacking you and not your turret, the turret adds DPS. If your enemy kills you he's unlikely to have enough bullets left in the clip to destroy the turret, not to mention that if you assume equal skill that your enemy will be on the verge of death and finished off by your turret.
Spitfires also have massive advantages for vehicle users. Most vehicle users will be sitting still for extended periods of time while looking down the barrel to kill infantry. While equipping proxy-radar works (especially with LA's now wanting to use a Rocklet to finish off a target rather than 1 C4) a Spitfire is better. Floating LA's take relatively long to reach you, and a Spitfire can kill with an average of 3 seconds of firing, which is an incredibly short time compared to the time it takes to reach and assault a vehicle. This is an almost guaranteed warning system that has the ability to actually kill your attacker before he accomplishes his goal, forcing your attacker to break off. Also since even backing up is fast enough to outrun just about any LA in the game you should be practically invulnerable to C4 as the C4 should never really be able to hit you. Naturally I've seen this being used by 2 people since the Spitfires inception, 3 if I count myself. Because even a no-brainer protection like that is too much trouble for vehicle users to go through. Which shows the complete apathy and dumbing down of basic skills that almost any player goes through when even touching a vehicle.

Spitfires were never and should never become autonomous machines that can 1v1 people. The Spitfires are more than fine as they are. They might improve them by increasing the cooldown and making Spitfires infinitely placeable, but any other upgrade would be making the Spitfire too good for it's role. It's a freaking tool! In the toolslot! Expecting the Spitfire to be good without players making use of it is like expecting the Motion spotter to kill enemies! Motion spotters are massively useful, but like any tool it requires a player to be present and make use of it's abilities.

I do use them as cover and OHK or anti-MAX turret into buildings with good efficiency. I don't stand on them all the time, after a shot I just hop out and use my carbine behind the cover of the turret. It's clearly not a suppressive turret like the AI, but it is useful anyway (and I can set up an infinite amount of it). I prefer to compare them all, as they use the same slot.

The DPS or alpha dmg gain is so high that not being able to use any other weapon is not a big problem. It's more a drawback on an open field with snipers around, but the Spitfire has no use in this place too.

I wouldn't survive an engie on any of the other 2 turrets either. Being free to move and engage with the Spitifre is quite interesting if you're not well prepared for an encounter and need time to set up traps and position yourself. In a well defended position, I don't find the Spitfire being a very valuable addition.

It's clearly its best role, I entirely agree with you on this point. It's even better when covering an AMS, as you can resupply anytime.

I don't want them to be 1v1 bulletproof killers either. But an increase in durability or DPS would be something to consider. At the moment I just don't fear them at all, and I'm saying this while considering there is often a free engie ready to shoot me too. I just know that I can destroy it easily, or entirely avoid its shots. This is something I really don't consider true with the other turrets.
On a little fight, you can almost always avoid it (noise to locate it and break its line of sight). On a big fight, its DPS is irrelevant compared to the mass. By the way, I wish it had a certable option to make it silent. It would add a big stealth value to it, much better as an ambush tool in little fights.

Overall it's a good security against fairies and a good alarm tool, but it doesn't change the course of a battle as one of the other 2 turrets would.

Also, I don't know how they perform with the coming deployable cover (any ETA ?). If it covers them a bit more, maybe it would give them a better purpose.

Does someone have the HP values of these turrets ? Can't find it anywehre.

Allright, I missed a few things for the AV turret, but it's still not exactly comparable to the Spitfire or AI turret. While they do fulfill the same slot they have vastly different roles. It's like comparing C4's ability to heal yourself to a medkit. Or the ability of a Medkit to damage opponents.

However your second comment is far off. The AI turret, according to tests a long time ago, deals 143 damage per shot with an RPM of 550. That brings it to AR levels of damage, specifically the TR Cycler for instance which uses the same model. So it doesn't really add that much damage compared to Carbines, in fact there's Carbines that out-DPS AR's in certain situations. So tis'DPS or alpha damage is far from as high that you can just sacrifice your primary, and the ability of the Spitfire to add even as low as 15% DPS to a Carbine is pretty big compared to what an AI turret doesn't really add.

The AI turret is a much more niche weapon than the Spitfire. Spitfires can be dumped anywhere and used to hold an attack position, while an AI turret only increases the risk of being flanked. Even when you are prepared the Spitfire is a massive boon. Anyone spending time and ammo on the Spitfire is someone who basically stops being useful for the timespan they are doing that, not to mention the forced reload they are likely to have with non-LMG weapons. The ability to move about and use your Carbine is a strong one, and even if you die and the turret persists it'll keep adding damage and supporting your team, while an AI turret at best works like a miniature cover.

One thing to note here. In AMS defense it does give some problems. While it's an easy way to protect your Sunderer and warn friendlies that an enemy is nearby, it also forces you to stick to Engineer and not use the slot during the rest of the engagement unless you want your Spitfire to disappear. This is why it's easier to use in vehicles: It takes seconds to set up, you are likely to stick close to the Spitfire (otherwise you wouldn't even need it, a moving target is tough for LA's to destroy), and when you are pounding infantry (during vehicle combat you don't need the Spitfire) there's bound to be a friendly Sunderer to resupply your Spitfires nearby.

I heavily disagree with you here (about Spitfires not having a lot of impact). While the big mass of players fights each other, the players that flank have a huge impact. I dare bet that around 20 to 30% of the Biolab fights are broken by flankers who open up enough room for his allies to pile through.
And as a dedicated LA and often times infiltrator, Spitfires are nasty. No their individual damage and strength don't scare me, but their potential is not to be trifled with. Your entire flank is instantly mute the moment a Spitfire spots you and warns it's allies, you are immediately weakened by it's shots, destroying the turret helps it's allies to pinpoint your location and you just weakened yourself as you've emptied your primary weapon (or in one case I tried to snipe it with my commy, but that takes several reloads). It's like a Motion spotter. It doesn't deal damage. It dies to like 3 shots or a knife-swing. But it's dangerous nonetheless. I mean people complain about the Heavy shield, which adds around 450 health, but in the meantime that Spitfire is sporting a whopping 2000 health that sucks away bullets out of your opponents gun.

And similar to a Motion spotter, they aren't useful against the giant mass of players that you already know is there and you are shooting at right now. They are useful against the flankers, the people who are about to tear 3 people apart if they remain unspotted.

I think the deployable cover isn't going to mesh well with Spitfires. The Spitfire will just have a more limited view of his surroundings.
And seriously, give that deployable cover to the Medic. The Medic can just as easily add "damage prevention" to it's resume and the Engineer has more than enough toys and things available. The Medic needs some more variation and roles to play, putting down cover would be excellent and it would instantly synergise with the class's own abilities of reviving and healing, giving it the ability to provide it's own cover to safely revive and support people.

If that's the case then the AI turret is vastly inferior to the T1 DPS-wise: 143/550 vs 143/750.

sure, why not!
and i say that as someone who uses Spitfire a whole lot inside where it won't really benefit me all that much,
and someone who loves to drift on my LA to c4 enemy prowlers/sunders and constantly gets engaged by pesky spitfires.

Demigan's reaction to anything Spitfire:

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Yeah, sure, why not.

The way I see it, giving Spitty 100 damage across all ranges would be like the recent minimum damage range buff the Razor carbine got. Was it necessary? Not really as Razor was already an exceptional mid-long range carbine. Did it help the weapon? Sure. Extra range is always great, especially on carbines. Did it make the weapon OP? Not a bit.

Same thing with giving Spitfires a flat 100 damage- not really necessary as they're already good at what they're supposed to do but a nice buff to a niche item that wouldn't mess with its current balance status.

I don't see why not really.. If it has that kind of range on anything its very exposed to enemy fire. They are more of an annoyance than any kind of threat... as they should be. But if you shoot it it should be able at least defend itself.

My reaction to any Scrn1Rusher's spitfire threads,

• Looks at proposed buff (always a buff)

• Proceeds to wait for Demigan's wall of text explaining in detail how it would be absolutely OP

• Enjoys

Spitfires could use some love. Sure they act as sentries but you gotta be an engineer.

How come no one ever brings that up in spit fire discussions? The trade off for using a spitfire is you're the worst combat class...they would be OP if any other class could use them. But it's only for engineer. What you're actually giving up is a jet pack, a shield, a cloak or a healing/shield regen...for a spitfire and an ammo pack. The other turrets are more situational, can be stronger but usually are just good ways to get you dead faster. Spitfire is the only thing to bother with as a combat engineer.

Buff the spitfire, make engineers more prevalent outside of vehicle combat...sounds good to me.

What are we really even talking about anyway? 10 shots @ 50m vs 20 shots at 50m... On a turret that has a 1.5 second ttk...actually that might be too good. Maybe 75-80 damage at 50m.

I don't understand why Engineers have to pay extra certs in order to carry additional spitfires while you can chain create AI/AV turrets. If we have to pay to carry extra spitfires, than we should be able to place multiple spitfire turrets down instead of allowing just one.

mother of christ more like

Imo if anything has to be buffed that's the reaction time, not the damage.

I use it rather often and you can get good kills with it. It's excellent in top of grav lifters and it's excellent as long as you guard it.
I find it a good choice when I must defend a certain area: spitty, claymore and an auto shotgun.

Well, I compare them all as they use the same dedicated tool slot (aka turret slot), to be more precise. Comparing them between their respective roles is precisely where I find the Spitfire lacking.

I got to elaborate on this part then. When I say a better DPS (not TTK), it's because of several factors :
- no recoil
- pin point precision on first shot and manageable bloom on sustain fire if not too far. Fast tap firing helps tremendously for precise shots (and doesn't overheat it as fastly too)
- sturdy, so you can count on it for a bit of time (and the longer you use it, the more damage you're able to do).
- covers very well the engineer, allowing for a better survivability (except against snipers obviously).
- Overheat mechanic (so no downtime unless overused)

All this, with its damage model, means you're extremely likely to kill anybody in your arc of fire without being damaged, and able to shoot at anytime (if you don't overheat it), while you would have to reload with any weapon an engie could carry. The rest is only a matter of clever positionning (Spitifre included).

Let alone facts, I think we're still on our own personal opinions on this matter XD

Probably, I don't really know. I see a lot of engies setting up a Spitifre and then do their job around the AMS (defending the sundy, repairing anything, supplying people around, shooting afar). So I suppose it's not really penalizing.

Well, it's kinda hard to estimate the efficiency on a situation that can't give solid stats (in which I include my previous own statement on the matter), even if I don't deny its usefulness in flank prevention tool. So we're still going to the personals opinion and experience argumentation, which won't bring us very far

Perhaps. I'll test it when it goes live, or if I'm in the mood for PTS.

Why not. I also feel that engies have enough tools for now. The Archer was certainly the thing that completed perfectly the role of this class.