[Suggestion] Should Repair tools/medic tools require ammo?

Oh, right, because tanks can be sooo aggressive right now. It's not like an aggressive tank gets instantly obliterated by C4, Tank Mines, Liberators, and Harassers.

Does nobody on this forum tank? Tanking is the most conservative playstyle by necessity right now. Everything is a threat.

I already cancelled my subscription because of the added AV in the latest round of direct/indirect nerf to tanks. I extend a hearty GFYS to anyone who suggests making them even weaker. Limiting the engineer repair tool? LOL. You might as well just remove tanks from the game.

Tool kit ammo is not so bad really. But it would work if we have Planetside 1 imventory.

I thought about it before, and came up with a similar idea. Engineers would have a nanite reserve for their abilities, and it would regenerate over time. Repairing would have a low cost, dropping ammo would have a moderate cost, and deploying turrets would have a high cost. Ammo packs would also run out after resupplying a certain amount, and could only resupply your faction.

My thinking is that it will cut down on spam. First, You wouldn't be able to constantly replace turrets if they're destroyed, and this could replace the resupply mechanic for spitfires. Second, you would need to be more careful in picking which abilities you use, instead of using each one whenever you can. Also, it would also make the need for engineers scale better with the size of the battle, and destroying enemy ammo packs would be more rewarding. The obvious downside is that self-centered engineers would drop fewer ammo packs in favor of their other abilities.

Who said I want fuel?

I never.

How is this a thread?

This would nerf medics & engineers.

And it has at least one person who would call himself a dedicated Engineer behind the idea.

I do, however, agree that it would currently be impossible unless a lot of things get re-tooled at once, not just Engineer things, but across the whole gamut of combat and support options. If we don't, we make volatile a mess of situations that were stable only because both sides had something of virtually limitless potential. It'd have to be a paradigm shift in its own right.

Even attaching some manner of Heat mechanic to the Medical Applicator would be easier at this point.

/thread

I know, right? Because that's what we need...

To limit massive Medic balls of necromancy, there should be limits on reviving.
1) Players who died in an "overkill" fashion cannot be revived. "Overkill" measures how much extra damage a player has taken beyond dying. So if a full-health player got hit by a Titan AP cannon, they would get an "overkill" of 1,575 damage. If we made an "overkill" threshold of 500, then they would not be revivable.
2) Players may only be revived a certain number of times per spawn. Maybe 3 times or so. After being revived three times, a player cannot be revived until they respawn again.
3) MAXes can only be revived if a Medic and an Engineer simultaneously use their tools. Apart from this, MAXes suffer from no other revive restrictions.

To limit Engineer repairs, there might also be mechanics in place.
1) Engineers can only conduct "field repairs". If a MAX/vehicle is in contested or enemy territory, the maximum an Engineer can repair their MAX/vehicle or that NAR works is to 85%. In order to repair to 100%, repairing must be done in a friendly, uncontested hex.

That being said, if Medic and Engineers are nerfed, then so should other classes.

HA's should only be able to absorb a certain total amount of damage (say 1,000) with their Shields and then they need to refill their Shields at an infantry terminal or Medic Shield Bubble.
LA's and Infiltrators should only be allowed to fly or cloak for a total of 45 seconds before they have to refill their energy at an infantry terminal or Engineer Ammo Pack.

lol, and air and tankers should return to base to refuel. are the tanks solar powered? on hossin that wouldn't work too good.

OP: bad idea. Cool down periods serve to limit the use of repair tool. another type of ammo would needlessly complicate an already overly complex game.

This game needs to be simplified, not additionally complicated.

I don't see how adding Ammo for them helps the game. Unless it's an absurd amount of Ammo, and then what's the point?

2+ Engineers repairing something non-stop is only OP in certain matchups. And in those matchups, it just defines which unit/combo is the winner. Having 2+ Engineers able to keep a Vehicle/Max/Turret/etc. alive creates a scenario where it's not just trivial for a unit to just use raw firepower to defeat any target. Instead, they have to accept no killing the target, or they have to deal with the Engineers.

I do think the Medic Revive is an issue in that it can be abused. But I think the fix for that is to give each player a limited number of times they can be Rezzed (2 times?) before they face Perma-Death (must ReSpawn).

The game already has many things that require resupplying, from either Terminals/Respawn or Ammo Packs. How many total items do you want players to have to juggle budgeting? Imagine if Engineer had all their abilities with Ammo, they'd be checking all the time.

And if you did attach an Ammo to Engineer (that wasn't crazy high), that would:
1) put a big leash on Tankers that want to wander
2) really limit a Harassers ability to do runs
3) make ESFs pilots leaving empty planes all over the place, which makes for very easy work by Gank Squads (who roam deep in enemy territory alread) who would just increase in number

Maybe it makes sense to add Ammo to everything. I just don't see the win in it.

Just to add to your point a tad.. but don't EMP grenades disable repairs/revives?

You keep saying words but I keep hearing the phrase "increases tactical investment."
It shouldn't stop a player from doing reckless things either; all that is required is a relatively decent escape plan.

It's something that wouldn't inherently be good or bad, but it would require a pretty large shift in the game's mentality. So it's not the kind of thing that could just be tossed in on its own, you'd have to overhaul the entire system of how ammunition in general works in this game plus address repair sundies.

During the duration of the EMP effect? I don't know offhand: I use EMP a lot, but I don't know what it does beyond killing Infantry UI/HUD, shield, deloacking, and killing some deployables.

Just looked here (http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/EMP_Grenade), but I don't see it say it affect the E and M Tools. I have no idea.

What issues are you indicating relative to that? I don't understand, please review it for me.

Well, I'm saying "increases tactical investment" for "no perceived gain" and for "loss in terms of general accessibility, gameplay synergy, and cumbersome supply micromanagement".

I don't Tank and I don't Harasser, so it's not like it affects me directly, but yanking the Engineer Repair from them seems like it just forces them into some weird Road Warrior resource starvation/management scenario.

And as an ESF pilot, I REALLY don't want to see more Gank Squads encouraged. Also, I really don't want to have to return to Warpgate (and hop up and down the structure to the Terminal) everytime I want to resupply. It's bad enough already that so many bases that have Air terminals take crazy long times to get from Spawnroom to Terminal: I can spawn at Western Warpgate and fly to Hvar Tech Plant faster than I can spawn at Hvar and get to the Terminal there.

I LOVE spreadsheets. And I love navigation, organization, logistics, etc. But I only am into them when they add something beyond just existing for their own sake. PS2 could easily redesign itself to be much more cumbersome and requiring fixation on insane levels of micromanagement... but what's the point? I already think there's too much needless tediousness in PS2 now, I am not looking for more. Sure, some/many units/gameplay/etc. could benefit for more complexity (not talking tweaks, but actual new levels of details added), but I think that is on a case-by-case situation.

I've listened to everyone's point of view. And honestly as much as I like the idea I think they are right. Heck I have like 70% of my time as an Engi and I don't think I would lose anything. BUT it would take to much balancing around other parts of the game to make it viable. I wouldn't really see it as a nerf to Engi's if it increased their upfront repair rate. But *shrugs* I'm not so attached to it to argue a losing cause.

THAT said.....ARE YOU HIGH?

This game is to complicated for you? You want it to be simpler? How much simpler can you get? Kill people get points...there is seriously like no other meta in the game...there is zero complication. *scratches head*

The depth this game lacks is the reason it has such a high turn over rate.

I don't know what a "gank squad" is other than a group doing something useful by dying enemy attempts at mobilizing or reconstituting reinforcements. No different from a tank (or group of tanks) that slip around the other side of a base, around the enemy's flank, and destroy the enemy Sunderers there and some of the ones coming to eplace the ones just destroyed.

And this part I don't quite understand. Whenever someone starts talking about the "vastness of distance" when they mean within the same base, my face scrunches up in confusion and I can only conclude that people really don't have any concept of time at all.

Point is, if we're talking logistics, you also have to hit the elephants in the room. My favorite class is an entry-level elephant if we're going to be talking logistics.

Examples follow?

Gank Squads are A2A (sometimes G2A) packs (of competent pilots) or Aces, of Libs or ESFs that fly deep into enemy territory to knock out Air.

If they're doing it with some kind of Strategic value (like knocking out Air supporting ally battlefronts, or disrupting an opponents Pumpkin/Snowman Alert efforts) that's ok. But when they just fly over battles that only involve enemy forces far from allied lines and just to farm Air, then it's just farming and heavy handed and a joke. The level of contribution to the game it's equivalent to, would be to be able to jump in on some 2-Team FPS as neither team and just mess with their battle using an overwhelming force. People can stretch for reasons why it might be some Strategy, but almost all Farming can do that: and it's just reaching.

I have LONG advocated full Air Radar (show unit icon, etc.) be added to the game for Air units 2 bases outside their Ally territory. It just makes for better gameplay. Instead of just

I can appreciate and I support keeping the Sand Box elements alive in the game. But supporting no-downside, minimal-risk, non-constructive mass griefer gameplay is unhealthy for the game's playability and long term survival.

Try thinking of it in relative terms. If I want to spawn an ESF and get to battle, what is the fastest and non-lethal and least tedious way to get to that battlefront. As a player you typically have options to spawn at any number of locations, some of which will have an Air Terminal, and all (except the Warpgate) which will have countdown timers to spawn there. Some bases (Towers for example) allow easy and quick access from Spawn-in to ESF fly out... like they were designed to enable soldiers to mobilize quickly. Others are (relative) slow and tedious and even sometimes non-intuitive to ESF fly out... like they were designed by morons to make players have to run through their art (like a long game company logo screen that can't be bypassed with a button press).

It betrays the suspension of disbelief (and wastes player time) when base design does not conform to practical use... without some other sort of benefit or good conveyance of experience.

It's just dumb and breaks theme and variety, that soldiers skip so much content in this game because it's design is not usable. I worked for Sigil where some fellow Designers were ruffled when players starting SKIPPING their dungeons... I had spreadsheets that showed why (risk and work were high, rewards and xp were inferior to farming overland pop and buying better crafted items). Some people got it, most did not. One day a team member was out, -8 hours work, later my manager got grumpy when he couldn't figure out why we were -8 hours labor for our team for the week, I tried to explain 40 - 8 = 32... he did not understand... he stayed grumpy and he thought I was a moron.

Some characters/units SHOULD be entry level logistics. Not every character should be SF2 Dhalsim.

Redeploy Hop, Implant Crafting, determining which Sunderer on the map is the Deployed one, massive reliance on 3rd party sites... which come and go so that we have different resources at different times/outdated data/etc., manual login of each Character for Daily Cert Bonus, figuring out workarounds for a massive number of career bugs (this would be a lot of examples, I'll cover some further along), dealing with OP units for months until they are addressed/nerfed (not so bad recently, but it seems to pop up), trying to find a decent fight/Continent/Server, new player experience, dealing with Shield+ADAD+Nanoweave+MedKIt+0.75 HA or trying to address this in amidst a sea of HA users (yes, I use HA too), various base designs, not flipping the Scythe when landing to repair, trying to figure out Cert prices for each level, trying to figure out Weapons data, figuring out if someone is hacking and what to do about it, learning to fly ESFs, which bases have Air Terminal and which ones just have Air Pads but no Air Terminal, figuring out which Lockon red dot is which of many kinds of Rocket/Missile, figuring out when in Hover while in Scythe 3P view, figuring out when in Hover while in 1P view of ESF, figuring out which Faction a non-ES enemy unity is with Q-Spot, figuring out what destroyed your Deployed Sunderer, arbitrary Vehicle steering, Vehicle killer Trees, impassable plant terrain on Hossin, odd Angle purple spikes on Esamir, Lattice choke point marathon stalemates, bio labs, VS camo at night, Faction ambiguous camo, etc., etc., etc.

All of the is a tedious and unnecessary chore to deal with.

The issues of revive abuse and multiple engies repairing. I'm not 100% sure but I could have sworn there was a patch a few months ago, maybe longer, that basically had EMP shut down all class abilities. It MIGHT just be the LA jumpjets and F abilities rather than tools.