Of course the prowler doesn't feel right they changed it in 2018

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Zoopshab, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. Zoopshab

    Of course the prowler doesn't feel right they changed it in 2018 to make it not do it's thing.


    Look im a new player (circa 2020 covid lockdown) and I could tell right away the prowler DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT. Like it's missing something. Did they try nerfing it first by reducing the numbers?? You can almost always get something back into balance by reducing it's attack damage, speed, percent.

    Right now you're stuck with a tank that doesn't know what it wants to be.

    Im going to see if the Vanu MAX used to be mobile instead of having it's current overcharge.

    (Edit: I guess shouldn't criticize too much. I mean you have to try things out to know. But this one doesn't "fit" and it makes the tank less fun.

    Despite what other are saying I think they are going in the right direction on a lot of things).
  2. Liewec123

    Old anchor was too strong, I feel like the current iteration puts it in a better place,
    If you're after a good use for anchor, try shooting at ESFS with it :D
    Each shot has the ability to oneshot the ESF, and the anchor makes landing the shots easier than any other tank :)

    Also old vanu max Overdrive was crazy OP,
    it was a toggle ability that you could have on all the time that made you move as fast as sprinting infantry in any direction
    (And while firing)
    That being said, the current Overdrive is dreadful, and i've been suggesting buffs for years!
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  3. MonnyMoony

    Zoe max is garbage - I don't think I have seen anyone use it for years.

    Maxes are already far too squishy - Zoe simply makes you even more vulnerable, paints a "shoot at me" target on you - and for what, slightly increased damage output.

    How about this for a suggestion for a re-worked Zoe.

    Activating Zoe gives you enhanced armour of the opposite type you have fitted, but in doing so, gives you a movement speed penalty (e.g. if you have Ordnance armour fitted, you gain Kinetic armour and vice versa). Essentially Zoe gives VS Maxes toggleable composite armour.

    I don't think it would be OP compared to the other faction specific Max ability - and would actually sit nicely between them.

    TR Max get's lockdown - which massively increases fire rate of weapons, but removes all movement

    NC max gets shield, which negates damage but stops weapon damage

    VS nu-Zoe would give no weapon advantage, but would give a wider range armour option at the expense of some movement speed.
    • Up x 1
  4. Demigan

    The Prowler is a fast, maneuverable, hard-hitting tank that has a part-time job as an artillery platform. Anchor was rarely used by Prowler users, mostly in niche combat scenario's and most players just didnt know when to use it. Anchor also removes a lot of the reasons to pull a Prowler. Its like giving the Magrider an ability that removes its strafing when you use it.
    Barrage on the other hand is quick and easy to use and directly supports the Prowler's main role of being a fast, maneuverable, hard-hitting tank.
  5. Arpheus

    Prowler got a few nerfs and indirect nerfs.

    The ammo pool was massively nerfed from 2+98 to 2+72 which means that Prowler now runs out of ammo a lot faster than the other MBTs. They did that so that every faction has around the same damage in their ammopool but they rounded it in favor of the other factions. TR has 44.400 total dmg in ammopool while the other 2 factions have 44.800. Back then Vanguard had total 50 ammo, Magrider also 50, Prowler 100 because 2 cannons use up double ammo.

    Now fully certed Vanguard has 1+55 Ammo, Magrider 1+63 and Prowler has 2+72 but requires 2 ammo from that pool per reload - so Prowler has only 36 reloads, while Vanguard has 55 and Magrider has 63.
    36 Reloads is absolutely horrible fully certed.
    So they nerfed Prowlers ammo pool - they can shoot fast (2 shots) but run out super fast too which is a massive nerf compared to before where they had double the ammo pool.
    I have these values because I made an excel file back then when the change was on PTS. Excel File dates back to 25.05.2017.
    Also the ammo refill from ammo printer was changed (another nerf):
    TR: 16 --> 10
    NC: 6 --> 7
    VS: 6 --> 8

    There were also changes to the reloads which were ok. Lower reload speed for Prowler but more damage per shot than before compared to other tanks. This is probably the reason why Prowler can oneshot ESFs with each of the 2 shots and it also means more alpha damage which helped to deal with the anchor nerf/change.

    Anchor Mode once was godly artillery fire and even so strong in close combat that you could sometimes break the vanguard shield (had only 2000 hp for max. 6 sec) and win the fight when both shot at each other face to face. If the vanguard moved to the side/back of you he would still win but if not Prowler had a good chance to win.
    This is now absolutely impossible unless you hit him from behind because the shield is up for full 8 seconds absorbing 2/3 damage instead of a few shots only til it breaks and then the huge DPS potential of Anchor Mode kicks in. Also Vanguard has more HP on top. Huge Nerf

    NC often says that the new shield is such a huge nerf but in reality that was a situational (strong buff) at least in tank line battles from the front. If 3 tanks shoot you that old 2000 HP shield would have been gone instantly while now he takes only 1/3 damage from these 3 tanks for a full 8 seconds duration. It is true that against flankers from behind the new shield is worse.

    Magrider got free Turbo + new Turbo Reset possibility. Also the speed was increased which tightens the gap between Magrider/other tanks. Running away with a prowler is far harder than before with Magriders turbo + faster speed

    A nice thing that the prowler got at the expense of a very godly anchor mode is Barrage. It is definitely nice in close combat situations

    What would I want for Prowler:
    In my oponion the Prowler should at the very least get an ammo increase to around 100 ammo (2+98) like it was before. It is true that it would then have 35% more total damage in the ammo pool but that is also a TR trait and absolutely justified by the two cannons eating the ammo a lot faster. Why should TR have to go reload so much more than the other factions?

    Also didn't a dev say that the Rampart Projector was only the first iteration and that they didn't have enough time to complete it? For the shining huge hitbox it should definitely be better. At the very least let it take normal damage from every side even from behind. If someone wants to hit the tank behind they have to shoot the tank and not the super large shield.
    If the shield takes no increased damage from the sides and from behind it would definitely be worth to use it.
  6. Pelojian

    old anchor was great for long range vehicle harrassement and swiftly killing deployed sunderers, many i time i shelled sunderers and forced some of them to retreat and find another area to deploy. it was and is good for long range shelling of sunderers.

    i tend to park on the hill west of Ti Alloys, deploy and then shell enemy vehicles when they are attacking the base, some of them are dumb enough to chase me up the hill and don't notice the mines i plant while they try to speed up the hill to get at me.

    pre-barrage i also used anchor in CQC in some situations, some were real suckers trying to turn a corner to attack me and then realize too late that i was deployed, they'd retreat i'd repair and then chase them down after becoming mobile again.

    barrage just makes it easier to hammer them without having to deploy in close range when it's possible to do so and win.
  7. Demigan

    Yes! Exactly! Most Prowler users rarely used it as an artillery platform, when they did it was more often because they were farming infantry and they used it even less in actual combat against vehicles at shorter ranges.

    Barrage might be a small nerf to the people who actually used Anchor for extended periods of time, but for the masses its an easy blessing. Like the Vanguard shield its almost guaranteed to be used at least once per Prowler pull, guaranteeing a higher performance per use compared to the old Anchor. Add on top of that how Barrage allows you to keep a mobile Prowler and you are set.
  8. Demigan

    All I'm reading is "Boohoo I'm throwing out so much DPS that I run out faster than my opponents who have practically the same total damage per basic ammo load". Imagine if the Magrider and Vanguard ran out of ammo at similar speed but still dealt the same total damage, all you have is a faster firing canon with more killing potential.
    Calling it a nerf and acting like that is a bad thing when it just balances things out is just bad sport. For example the ammo-per-tick nerf also made sure that each faction got more or less the same amount of DPS back per ammo tick, with the TR at the lead with 4750 (HEAT ammo for all 3 MBT's), followed by the VS with 4400 and the NC with 4200 damage per ammo tick returned to their chassis. Before that nerf the TR got a whopping 7600 damage back while the VS and NC respectively got just a bare 3300 and 3600 damage per ammo tick back, less than half of the TR. Yet you are sitting there basically saying "that was how it's meant to be". You just want to have advantages over you enemies so you can win more easily, you don't want balance.

    Anchor was nerfed, the Prowler was buffed. Anchor was rarely used by the lionshare of the populace, while Barrage is used almost guaranteed once per life. It's an easy to use, powerful tool that does not sacrifice the speed and maneuverability of the Prowler. If you are unable to use that to your advantage the fault isn't the devs for changing it, it's on your end.

    The Vanguard's shield was nerfed. Previously you could keep the shield in reserve for when you really needed it. It was great for when the sluggish thing wasn't fast enough to get back into cover for example or when you knew you'd be taking more than 2000 damage anyway. Now you basically have to activate it as soon as you'll be receiving more than a few hits because you can't rely on activating it when your health is lower.
    The Vanguard's problem is that it can't really leverage anything. Magrider and Prowler have the speed and maneuverability to dodge or get in better positions during and before combat much more easily than the Vanguard and their abilities help them either deal the damage or avoid more. The Vanguard relies on taking damage, so it's only course of action is to reduce how easy it is for their opponents to use their abilities. Essentially only by making it a slugmatch where neither tank moves is the Vanguards only option to win. If their opponents do things like shoot until you activate the shield and then repair up while your shield depletes itself, they are almost guaranteed to win for example.
    Also what about the Magrider versus the Prowler? It's not like the Vanguard is the only vehicle you'll meet! And the Lightnings, Sunderers, Harassers etc you'll meet?

    Exactly: Situational. And situational is worse than omniversal. Almost every single weapon, vehicle or class in the game that sees the most use and is the most effective are the omniversally useful jack-of-all-trades variants. If you are in a tank line and all Prowlers activate their Barrage, all those Prowlers will benefit from that Barrage. If you are in a tank line and all Vanguards activate their shield, only those who get hit will benefit.

    But hey, you can prove the Prowler is such a bad tank right? You can pull up it's performance statistics and prove to everyone how terrible it is.

    Running away has always been hard for every tank. The Magrider did get a random buff out of nowhere, but so did the Prowler with Barrage.
    Also now imagine how a Vanguard must feel. Can't turn around fast enough, the worst acceleration of all MBT's (sorry, any vehicle), can get up to a decent speed in a straight line but the moment it tries to turn a corner it immediately slows down again. It's only option once again: Tank it all, hope their opponents try to tank it all as well.
    Now you'll probably be frothing at the mouth "But but but Vanguard shield is IWIN button!", well I want the devs to remove it and give the Vanguard something that it can leverage. It's base chassis is the worst without the shield, and most of the time the Vanguard is without it's shield. The base chassis also has nothing really to leverage on it's opponents. It's not faster, it's not more maneuverable, it can't dodge. It can't really do anything better to exploit aside from taking damage. It needs something that a Vanguard user can use to get ahead of the other two MBT's. Just like a Barrage can get you a win or using the strafing and hitbox to avoid getting hit.

    The TR trait is more damage per magazine, not per total ammo pool. And even that is contentious as the NC has the highest damage per magazine on many weapons due to it's higher damage per bullet. Also "why the TR has to reload so much more"? What the hell? The whole reason the TR chews through it's ammo so quickly is because it spends less time reloading and more time shooting. What do you think Barrage is doing for your reloads? And the ability to fire 2 shots and deal a lot more damage than either other tank per salvo?
    • Up x 2
  9. Pelojian

    this and it's been nerfed more then that, now it doesn't protect you from hits from above like it used to, way back when if an ESF was aiming to pick you off in a 1/2 vanguard the less experienced pilots would stop attacking and wait out the duration, giving you time to ether shoot back with an AA topgun or try to drive somewhere for cover/towards other allies.
  10. Demigan

    And if you ever leave the driver's seat the shield insta-vaporizes. Can't activate and repair anymore!
  11. Arpheus

    It was a nerf compared to how it was before nevertheless no matter how you turn it. And still even now there are disadvantages in the total ammo pool for the Prowler. Here some details:
    Attacking a magrider at medium+ range or against some pros even close range (watch video linked down there) means in most cases more missed shots thanks to Magriders ADAD dodging = less ammo pool left for Prowler compared to the Magirder which has an easier time to hit a more predicatable Prowler (or if the Prowler ADAD's the Magrider has convenient hits to the side for more damage and a large hitbox which is bad for Prowler).
    In case that you want to tell me that to miss a Magrider you have to be a noob watch this:

    Even if you are a GOD Prowler or Vanguard driver you simply cannot dodge bullets like that because you simply don't have that insane super-mobility.

    Shooting a Vanguard which has 6.000 HP instead of 5.000 HP and on top a Vanguard shield which from the front blocks 2/3 of the damage and from the side 1/3 for 8 seconds means u need to invest more Ammo to kill it = less ammo pool left for Prowler

    So in both cases on average if fighting the other MBTs the Prowler will have less ammo left than VS and NC would have because he needs to invest more ammo for a kill on average - exception against a magrider in close range against a non-pro-dodger. Ammo Pool also won't win you a single fight but will send you back to bases to refill your ammo more often.

    For the ammo Tick the damage per shot distribution between the tanks was different back then but it is true that TR had the upper hand here by a large margin (+60% compared to Vanguard, +79% compared to magrider with old values). But still it got nerfed compared to what it was before - even if it might be a justified nerf it was still a nerf.

    Barrage is definitely good and I gave it some credit. As you wrote it gives the prowler some fire power in close combat fights without sacrificing mobility. A nice thing.

    But Anchor was used a lot and was very powerful for armor column fights. TR could shell down any tanks incoming from far range. It was definitely far superior to what we have now with the insane reload that it had. I think we had around 1 seconds reload for 100% of the time instead of 3.5 sec reload with some barrage bursts which are still a lot weaker than anchor was before and has a far shorter Uptime. The difference was so huge that two Prowlers repaired by 10 people could stop entire armor columns coming up a road because of the insane DPS. There is no denying.
    Was it overpowered? Yes of course. Was it a nerf to remove it? Yes too.

    I think it had uses before where it was better and it has now where it is better. When now I accidently stumble into a stealth vanguard in close combat facing me that is a 99% loss against a competent crew when it was not before. With old Anchor it was possible to win such a fight by just bursting away the shield and HP in no time. Chances were not great but it was a lot more possible.

    To your other points about the vanguard mobility I agree. It has by far the worst accelleration and therefore mobility. But removing the shield would hurt it massively if it didn't get something else really powerful. Vanguards are really strong if they are part of an armor column and engineers. And you can't really engage them in close quarters when you can't flank them. This is a good strength. In such situations a prowler is a lot weaker. Magrider is a special kind there - they sometimes even survive in constrained areas like enemy bases where they shouldnt even be. All that dodging and mobility allows crazy stuff in the hands of a good driver.

    I wrote "Why should TR have to go reload so much more than the other factions" and not "Why the tr has to reload so much more". With "go reload" I mean drive back to some vehicle ammo tower. I could have written go refill ammo to make it more clear.

    So overall what I tried to say is that it is justified that TR feels like the Prowler was nerfed because it actually was in certain areas.
    Were the changes justified to balance out the tanks? Probably yes? Was the Prowler super dominant before the nerfs? I don't think so but I also don't remember the statistics from before the changes. But there were nerfs on many ends to the Prowler while for example the Magrider did only receive buffs in every single direction from what I remember. So that feeling that the Prowler was nerfed compared to back then is valid. But the Prowler also got buffs like Barrage and in theory the rampart projector if it was changed a bit.

    I still ask more ammo pool for the Prowler and think it is justified - Prowler burns through its ammo a lot faster and consumes more % of its total ammo pool to beat the other MBTs than the other way around. It doesn't have to be able to shoot as long as the others but some kind of a middle way like I suggested in my other post.
  12. Arpheus

    It doesn't protect from above? that would be a bug then or do you mean from shots from behind?
    According to wiki it should protect from above like it does from the front.

    I don't play much NC but if the shield is gone once you leave the driver seat that is a really bad mechanic. I would post that in the bug forum since there really is no reason for such a thing happening. Switching to the secondary AA gun shoud definitely keep the shield active - if it does not this has to be changed in my opinion.
  13. Demigan

    Imagine if we have two weapons that are exactly the same.
    One gets a buff, let's say 100 damage.
    Then it gets a whopping 4 nerfs of 10 damage each! Wow! Clearly weapon 1 now is worse off! It has had only 1 buff and 4 nerfs right?

    Ofcourse not, it still deals more damage. The amount of nerfs or buffs is meaningless, the actual performance and balance is.

    1: most of those scenario's are cherry-picked. Look at the situation almost every battle happens in, look at the targets he fights. There's a couple of 2/2 versus 1/2 Prowler's in there, and several fights where the Prowler is being engaged by multiple other VS troops and also Prowlers with bad equipment choices (like Gatekeeper, which isn't great to begin with and even worse in CQC). Also you can see how useful it is to minimize contact with the enemy. The Magrider in question makes sure in some cases the Prowler can only get one shot off before hopping back into cover, which it can do solely because of the situation the Prowler is in. Yes that is a thing it can leverage, but the Prowler can leverage things too!
    2: There is no doubt that the Magrider and Prowler are closer together, but this does show how a good leverage of your abilities can be a boon. The Prowler might not be able to dodge like that, he does have the ability to boost it's DPS at the right moment and he can leverage it's speed and mobility, not to mention that any long-range engagement he can use his Anchor mode and benefit from the higher muzzle velocity.
    3: It's unfair to say "ah but some people can do this!. Well yes, I have personally fought off multiple 2/2 Prowlers and 2/2 Magriders solo in a Lightning. That does not mean that the Lightning is suddenly capable of defeating multiple fully crewed MBT's by default! I also have a higher VKPU with my Lighting HESH weapon than most others do with their Lighting AP gun both before and after CAI. That does not mean that the Lightning HESH is suddenly superior to the Lightning AP in tank vs tank engagements!

    Also just because you can miss a Magrider and suddenly have less ammo does not mean that this is just a bad thing for the Prowler alone. In fact the Prowler at least has the ability to fire more shots and make up for misses, where most other vehicles do not or lack the DPS to make use of it.

    This is again true for any vehicle in the game. This isn't a Prowler exclusive thing. Just like it's not exclusive for Magriders to dodge Prowler shots. Also in absolute terms the Prowler has more shots, just less reloads. In absolute terms the Prowler also requires just 1 reload tick to have more DPS total than the NC and 2 reload ticks to have more DPS total than the Magrider. Just imagine if the Magrider and Vanguard got 10 shots per magazine. "Oh noes, they have less reloads than the Prowler! They need more ammo now!". That's the level of intelligence you've just reached.

    You realize that the pro-dodger is the exception?
    Also who cares that you need more ammo per kill, if you can get enough shots off to actually require the reloads you've already been effective enough. I never ever ran out of ammo on my Vanguard or Magrider because they just don't live that long (despite the Vanguard having a longer average lifespan than the other two MBT's according to old old data). The Prowler? You can get that full damage potential of all it's ammo out on your enemies and get some new ammo a lot of the time, and be effective doing it as well.
    And again: You get more DPS and shells per ammo tick, you get more shells to start with but with less reloads required to fire them all and you have a higher base DPS that can be boosted on top of that.

    It doesn't matter how many times you were nerfed! Why do people ever think that being nerfed justifies being buffed up again?

    Far more than a nice thing, a powerful thing. The Lightning for example is in many ways similar to the Prowler, and the reason the Lightning is powerful is because of it's DPS, speed and mobility giving it a chance to fight back against the MBT's. Add to that the fact that it is a well used thing and it stops being nice and goes to "that is damn good".

    if on every 100 player's there's 5 pro's using it with 5x the effect of the others, or there's 100 players all using it with 2x the effectiveness, the latter is superior. PS2 is not just about solo effectiveness, but what you can do as a faction. These numbers are imaginary don't people go "see you think old Anchor was 5x more effective than the Barrage!".

    A lot? You could fight 100 Prowlers and find maybe 10 people actively using it, most of them being of the garden "farm infantry" variety. Actual tank-on-tank Anchor mode players were rare unless the terrain allowed easy long-range bombardment.

    "The nerf was justified! But I still get to complain about it and...". And what? Ask for it to return? The Anchor wasn't used much and while powerful, the fact that almost every Prowler will now actually use it is far more powerful for the TR as a whole than the few Anchor users they had.
    Also only during the first few years of Planetside could a single Prowler demolish entire vehicle columns. To say that it still could today without extremely favorable circumstances is to lie.

    Adapt to it and it won't be a 99% loss anymore.

    Also have you noticed that there's dozens of scenario's where the Vanguard is boned itself when facing a Prowler? Saying "oh noes in this specific situation I lose!" does not mean anything if the Vanguard also has specific situations where it would lose.

    All 3 MBT's should have situations where they shine. Magrider has it, the Prowler has it, the Vanguard has it kinda. However the Vanguard cannot force this upon his enemies, he can only hope the situation forces the enemy into that situation or that the enemy is oblivious.

    That is why the shield needs to go. It will lay bare how bad the base chassis of the Vanguard really is. It will also make the VS and TR less inclined to blame the shield. RIght now people don't feel a Vanguard winning a battle is earned because they feel the shield is the only reason it won. Which is kind of true, as without the shield the Vanguard is much weaker than the other two and with the shield is the only chance it has to be effective. The Vanilla Vanguard equates to a Shield Vanguard as without that shield you have no business buying it. But a Prowler or Magrider without their signature abilities? (ignoring that they now have them auto-granted)? Yes they are still capable!

    Removing the Vanguard shield means we can update it's base chassis to be on-par with the vanilla chassis of the other two tanks. For example we could change it's railgun into an actual railgun it can charge up for extra damage and allow it to pierce vehicles at the cost of DPS if he uses the full charge. The Vanguard also needs a mobility advantage: The Prowler has speed, acceleration and a solid maneuverability. The Magrider is held back in terms of average max speed but has it's strafing and ultra-high turn ability, not to mention the synergy with Lightnings where they can move over/under each other. The Vanguard has nothing really, but it could for example get the best reverse-speed, the best engine allowing it to push other vehicles aside and be treated as a heavier vehicle allowing it to deal damage through ramming (and if you get rammed by the slowly maneuvering Vanguard, either it went perfectly right for the Vanguard or horribly wrong for their enemy).

    Then with the base chassis closer together in terms of things they can leverage compared to the others you can truly look at solid abilities for the Vanguard.

    Because it actually runs out of it's ammunition, which is a good thing?
    If you can throw the full 44.000 damage at your enemy more often than the other two and then have to reload, how is that a bad thing? We could give you a longer reload and longer RPM to equalize the times the Prowler needs to get new ammo compared to the other two. It achieves your goal, but also points to why this is a ridiculous goal to achieve: Should you care about how much times you have to get new ammo, or should you care about actually dealing all the damage in your ammo storage?

    I don't think there's anything justified at all. The Magrider has gotten undeserved buffs that is true, but undeserved buffs that harm everything. It is not a reason for the Prowler to be looked at specifically. Also while the Prowler might spend more ammo defeating the other MBT's, it can actually expend that ammo and does not have to spend that ammo dealing with other threads like Sunderers, Lightnings, Harassers etc.

    We should be looking not at "my Prowler this", "my Vanguard that" and "Magrider needs moar!". We should be looking at: What is good for the game?
    There's tons of buttons unused on all vehicles that could be used for a variety of abilities to diversify the tanks (not just MBT's). The turret on these vehicles are just point-and-shoot and could fire off their own abilities so that they are more enjoyable to use. Vehicles need to be more swiss-armyknives that you try to leverage for superiority than tanky and static (especially when dealing with infantry).
  14. TRspy007

    Prowler was better in it's old state.

    It required a brain to use, but you were rewarded for it, and the ability matched the lore.

    Not sure what this zoe like barrage thing is doing on my once beloved tank.

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