Now that Banshee has been Adjusted*

Sorry, I wasn't asking you specifically. I meant that rhetorically.

This is what happens when people only read the last one or two comments.

Yes of course you can take out a tank with a Needler if it has no AA on it.. and no one in the tank has G2A lockons.. and the tank is out in the open all by itself.. and if no air comes to help... and if no one else comes to help.

The discussion WAS about using the Banshee for Close Air Support - that means supporting ground ops IN A BATTLE... not 1v1.

Yes the Hornets can hit things and do a reasonable amount of damage... if you read the discussion you will find what I use the Hornets for because of the risk/benefit ratio works out to an acceptable level IMO.

If you are only interested in defending the troll then yay for you... but if you want to have a discussion then read it before you jump in.

EDIT: BTW it was the troll who decided to focus on "one pass"... one pass is not combat.. and depending on the situation you may be able to get by with one pass without anyone shooting at you. But if you try to take out tanks with the Needler... or the Hornets... or the Rocketpods in a real battle you will be engaged by weapons from all sorts of units in the area and outside of the area which can kill you MUCH faster than you can kill the tank.

Have a nice day.

It's not as easy, you must be one of the dudes who does as well in his HA as he does in his ESF (not so well). While the POTENTIAL for kills with the HA or LA or inf (due to shield, elevation, and invisibility) can be very high, several different variables need to fall into place, and many of them depend on luck. There's no stray grenade that lands at your feet, there are no AP mines that you forgot to check for, a sniper doesn't pop your head whilst you're standing still for a moment,or you don't get into such a situation where he can bodyshot you in combination with some other dudes shooting you(i've had many killstreaks ended because of this, where another guy with an automatic instead of a sniper, wouldn't have killed me but the sniper did), an equally skilled or better player gets the jump on you, you don't get farmed yourself etc. etc.

With the old Banshee, while you did encounter risks they were few and far between. Instagib or almost instagib launchers weren't a threat because you weren't making high risk strafe runs. It's much easier to escape AA if you aren't strafing, but are just gunning a few guys down and then afterburning away. Now that Banshee users need to make themselves an easier target to get their kills, it's definitely more "balanced", if such a term can even apply to farm chariots. There are lots of wounded players in large battles, which is why bodyshotting snipers can be so effective. It shouldn't be a problem with ESFs either. Now you actually have to learn the mechanics of flying to farm, instead of just knowing pitch down, pitch up, press down space bar and afterburn.

Then it also depends on the aim of the user, skill of the pilot, etc. etc. Usually an ESF can successfully avoid turrets, and since turrets are the ONLY source of damage usually hitting them they can easily fly away.

Sure, it's their fault, it also means that using AA turrets as an example of "if you can use Y to counter X, then X isn't OP" isn't really a solid argument.

Skyguards - vulnerable, clumsy compared to what they're supposed to counter (understandable), god forbid you get AV tanked or tankbustered.

Bursters - weak, bipedal platform, were VERY vulnerable to the old Banshee (why would you even bring that up in regards to the old banshee, pretty sure its ability to melt MAXes was one of the reasons why it got nerfed).

Lockons - stupid tbh, many times i'll be able t oget a lock, but have it stopped by some building or tree. They need to fire vertically and then go after the esf. Their lock can also be broken, and pilots also can use flares.

-Why not? That's kind of how strategy works. If there's an easy counter, that makes it only a threat if you let it be a threat.

-You mean... the dedicated counter has a dedicated counter? The horror!

-Ever try going head to head with two Burster MAXes in a Mosquito? Not pleasant. I'm a noob in the thing, of course, but then again, if you have to be good to do it properly, that negates the idea of "unskilled farming", doesn't it?

If you think farming infantry in an ESF when there is a ton of AA around is easier, then go do it. Stray grenades and snipers aren't half the threat AA is. And infantry doesn't have to repair after each pass, so the KPH can be higher. My KDR has the potential to be better in the air, but unless we are going to declare that padding stats is the goal, then that doesn't really matter. I actually play both infantry and air, and I'm telling you that farming is easier in big battles as infantry because of the AA. If AA is not present, then air wins, but obviously that isn't what I was talking about in the first place.

2 v 1 isn't something you balance around. Two burster MAXes should annihilate a mossy, two pre-nerf banshee mossies would also annihilate two bursters. It's pretty ridiculous. Also unless i'm mistaken, MAXes cost more in nanites than ESFs, so that's the "more nanites means it's supposed to be better" argument, not that I align myself with it. Now a Banshee user needs to fully account for all threats that come with the trade, instead of having such a low TTK on his targets that he wouldn't even need to worry about them. Flak is something that does a lot of damage over time, and it's only a good counter on the ESF when it isn't afterburning away.

I'd rather not. My cheese is only pulled in rage, and that cheese is a nebula/blueshift/scatmax or HE lightning. Stray nades and snipers are much more threatening to infantry than flak is to ESFs. Flak is doing damage to you? Buzz off! Nade lands at your feet? You can either run, or if it's thrown from a certain distance it'll gib at your feet and ruin your day. If it's a sticky nade then you're screwed anyways. Sniper, lol. I'm an OK sniper, I can body shot a slow, sluggish infantryman if I'm not up for the one shot headshot. Compared to the fast moving, extremely maneuverable ESF, flak isn't a threat because it's much tougher to track an ESF using flak than it is to bodyshot a soldier. Also, you're forgetting the splash damage and sheer TTK/DPS that made the Banshee so ridiculous. You can't compare any infantry weapon to that.

Oh Christ, when are people going to stop requiring nerfs to AI weaponry? I feel that even if the LPPA, the AH and the Banshee all ended up firing feathery pillows people would still complain.

Yes, they are going to slaughter infantry if you're not careful. That's they're role and you should accept it, if it was a wrong or broken thing they would have not put it into the game in the first place.

Seriously guys. Stop nerfing guns in their intended strong points. If anything, nerf the anti-air effectiveness of the AH and the Banshee so that they are on par with the PPA if you want a nerf so bad, or even better, change the PPA so it has the same A2A effectiveness of the other 2 guns, and then they can be treated equally.

MAXes can also be revived and more easily repaired.

And flak has a considerable range if you don't go low-altitude (which is a skill-based counter, trees are dangerous to noobs like me). If you stay above ground level you can easily get nailed half a kilometer away (which, using AB speed as 350km/h [that about right?], is about 5 seconds). (Or at least, I seem to be able to pull that off with a Phalanx).

Mosquito vs MAX:
Banshee: 150 direct/150 splash, 800 RPM, 25 round magazine
MAX resist: 50% to explosives; Banshee isn't listed in the wiki resist tables I can find, but I'll assume it's the 70% for Aircraft Machine Guns.
Total Damage: 45 + 75 = 120
Shots needed to kill: 17
This is again roughly 2/3 accuracy necessary. During the firing period, the Mosquito must be heading directly towards the MAX. Assuming they empty their entire magazine at 800RPM, that's about 1.9 seconds in and 5 seconds out--call it 7 seconds total.

MAX vs Mosquito:
NS-10 burster min damage is 20+56. Modified for resistances, that's 5 + 89 = 94 damage.
At dual-bursters (2x 220 = 440RPM), that makes a TTK of 3 seconds. Ammo capacity is 56 rounds between the two of them. Rounds to kill is 22.

The MAX has 7 seconds and 56 rounds to deliver 3 seconds' worth of hits and 22 rounds. That's less than 50% accuracy.

Meanwhile, if the Mosquito is successful, after they fly off someone can revive and remain the MAX. The Mosquito has to (a) not die in the first place and then (b) land and repair, which is only going to work if they don't come across Bursters, Skyguards or Phalanxes on the way out.

In short, the Mosquito's job is harder.

(I disregard flying low and so forth, this being a skilled counter and therefore negating the idea of "unskilled farming".)

Your experience does not reflect my own. I don't often put myself in situations where I can get grenaded, and I find most snipers to be more interested in sniping stationary targets, so I never stop moving. I find HA farming in a big battle to be one of the game's easy modes, just like I find an ESF attacking ground with no defense to be easy mode. I think you are confusing using an ESF effectively with not dying in an ESF. Yes, you can get kills and live if you are good enough pilot and the flak isn't completely overwhelming, but that isn't even what I'm talking about. I'm specifically talking about KPH in large battles, and the skill level associated with it. Even if I get just as many kills with an ESF as I do with an HA, that doesn't change the fact that one playstyle is very difficult to pull off without a lot of experience.

Hold on, 3 seconds to kill a full health ESF? Also most pilots are going to have extended mags on their AI nose gun.

3 seconds exactly, yep. Mosquitos resist 70% to direct hits from Light Flak Projectiles and -60% to Flak Explosions.

Even with extended mags, their needed accuracy is still going to be less than the MAX's--it would have to go from just under 2/3 to less than 1/2. Extended mags would have to boost the size to about 40 in order to make that shift. (Do they? I have no idea.)

deterrence definition
A military capability sufficiently strong to discourage any would-be aggressor from starting a war because of the fear of retaliation.


It's only 3 seconds if you are dumb enough to go within 100m of a spawnroom where an AA defence is set.
Working as intended, go farm infantry somewhere else if a no fly zone is already in place on that base.