A recent post labeled A video response to the "NERF HACKSAW" requests demonstrates NC AI MAX weapons vs VS and TR AI weapons at varying ranges versus each other. That post made a very good case against any claim saying that scatter-type weapons were extremely powerful even at 30m+, and has proven that argument false without doubt. This is an attempt to settle the case completely. In this thread I will prove that the NC have both a significant in Bio Labs and choke points, and also the best AI MAX. About Balance 1. Balance between factions is done on an individual basis, not as a sum of its parts One Underpowered or Overpowered element of a faction does not justify another. None of this "Ill give stop using Skillsaws when you stop using Swagriders". This goes all ways, its a stupid argument, don't make it. 2. MAX vs MAX should be balanced One faction shouldn't have a better anti-MAX, just as one faction shouldn't have a better anti-air MAX. 3. Things are judged in the situations in which they are designed for and their associated metagame. For example, saying that carbines are better than sniper rifles OVERALL because carbines are better in CQC is an invalid argument, as they are not both intended for use in close combat, and one does not commonly bring a sniper rifle to clear rooms. You could make an argument about the Track-5 vs the Solstice, as they are both apples. 4. All other things equal Same number of forces, equipment, and coordination on each side. No on to it. Argument 1: Choke Points are the most effective situation for AI Maxes and NC Maxes significantly more effective than TR/VS AI Maxes at choke points 1. After vehicles, AI Maxes are the most effective tool against large groups of enemy infantry In certain situations with very low amounts of infantry on all factions, AI Maxes are less effective due to mobility and stealth being very important elements in these situations. AI Maxes shine here because of their increased sustained DPS and their increased survivability vs small arms. 2. Large fights in general revolve around capture points 3. The deeper the capture point, the larger the infantry to vehicle ratio 4. The largest concentration of fighting at bases with high infantry to vehicle ratios is at choke points The less vehicles can have an effect on the battle, the more infantry will be. 5. Choke points are broken with superior firepower 6. AI Maxes have the highest survivability and highest sustained DPS of all infantry classes These properties allow Maxes to pass through choke points better than any other class, acting as a force multiplier. -Therefore Choke points are the most effective situation for AI Maxes 8. NC AI Maxes have the best firepower in close range over TS/VS AI Maxes NC Maxes can kill TR/VS Maxes in two seconds, VS/TR can kill NC Maxes in five seconds at choke points. Source -Therefore NC AI Maxes are significantly better than TR/VS AI Maxes at Choke Points 9. TR/VS have no such advantage at choke points -Therefore NC has a significant advantage over TR/VS at Choke Points Argument 2: Bio Labs are the most effective location for AI Maxes, and NC Maxes are significantly better than TR/VS Maxes at Bio Labs 1. After vehicles, AI Maxes are the most effective tool against large groups of enemy infantry 2. Large fights in general revolve around capture points 3. The deeper the capture point, the larger the infantry to vehicle ratio 4. AI Maxes are more effective the larger the infantry to vehicle ratio As AI Maxes are very weak against vehicles 5. Bio Labs have the largest infantry to vehicle ratio -Therefore Bio Labs are the most effective setting for AI Maxes 6. Bio Labs fights are completely centered around choke points 7. NC AI Maxes are significantly better than VS/TR at choke points NC Maxes can kill TR/VS Maxes in two seconds, VS/TR can kill NC Maxes in five seconds at choke points. Source -Therefore NC AI Maxes are significantly better than TR/VS AI Maxes at Bio Labs 8. TR/VS have no such advantage at Bio Labs -Therefore NC has a significant advantage over TR/VS at Bio Labs Argument 3: NC AI MAX is the best AI MAX 1. Choke Points are the most effective situation for AI Maxes 2. Bio Labs are the most effective location for AI Maxes 3. NC AI Maxes have a significant advantage over TR/VS AI Maxes at choke points 4. NC AI Maxes have a significant advantage over TR/VS AI Maxes at Bio Labs -Therefore NC AI MAX is the best AI MAX Conclusion This wouldn't be important if TR/VS had a significant advantage at Tech Plants, Amp Stations, or towers. They however do not have such advantage, clearly all fights that can be fought with vehicles will be fought with vehicles and seeing as Maxes are very easy targets for tanks and aircraft that limits their use to indoors. All Maxes are at disadvantage vs infantry at range due to cone of fire, inability to properly use cover, and very large hitbox. The only time range is an advantage as TR/VS AI MAX is against an NC MAX. However, it is impossible to be caught in the open as a NC MAX due to Charge and also since TTK for TR/VS against an NC MAX is at least five seconds if ALL shots hit. Range is never an option for a class that is the worst at range above all other units Clearly this is not balance. I suggest possible changes. 1. Increase the time it takes to kill TR/VS Maxes as NC AI to 4 seconds (NC AI 1 second faster) without affecting TTK vs Infantry 2. Decrease the time it takes to kill NC Maxes as TR/VS to 3 seconds (NC AI 1 second faster) at choke point range without affecting TTK vs Infantry or TTK vs MAX at long range or awesome new guns! 3. Give all factions AI Shotguns and give NC Heavy 20mm AI Cannons that shoot at 200 rpm 4. Scrap MAX shotguns and give NC Heavy slow-firing 20mm AI Cannons that shoot at 200 rpm I also brought Visual Aids
....... I do appreciate all the time you invested OP but to flat out say NC MAX is the best AI MAX is incorrect. Its situational, just as the other MAX's are. It excels in small spaces, while TR/VS prefer moderate distances. What happens when the terrain changes, like on Hossin. Jungle, likely lots of open terrain. Fighting between swamps/trees/sunken landscape. Then what? Will NC MAX STILL be considered the best AI MAX? At this point I feel NC MAX's could have their weapons removed entirely & be only left with melee & we would still be deemed best NC MAX. Argument just gets so tired and old. Do this & we might as well not have any factional differences. 100% serious. If we are going to start carbon copying every faction lets just get it over with & turn Planetside 2 into one of the other 10,000 other FPS's on the market. That way we can all be the same, holding hands with rainbows.
Hate reading posts with different colours, different fonts and underlines everywhere, gives me a headache. Seems like you've already drawn your conclusion then making your argument to fit your conclusion. Couldn't disagree with you more. Can an NC MAX defeat a TR/VS MAX at a choke point? Yes. Are NC MAX better at defeating infantry at a choke point? Depends. If that choke point has one entrance, no flanking positions from any sides or above to jam explosives through and enemy saunter in with a nice delay between each other. NC has an advantage. Small clips, long reload time and short range leave them defenceless against ranged flankers and multiple enemies pushing through one or more of those choke points. TR/VS are more capable of dealing with a higher stream of enemy count, being able to deal more consistent damage for longer times at longer ranges with significantly less down time. I'm actually trying to think of choke points in a Bio Lab that don't have multiple ways to attack them. There's very few is any at all - I haven't played in them all though. There's 3 Bio Labs per continent? I spent <2% of my MAX time in a Bio Lab for a meta-game reward that doesn't even apply to the MAX - though it probably provides infantry resources? There actually has to be an enemy there for a fight to commence. But, we'll just cherry pick 3% of the locations you can potentially fight in and use it to prove that NC MAX is OP. I would spent the majority of my time at Tech Plants, their outlying areas and Amp Stations and their outlying areas. I love fighting at that crater site on Indar (don't recall it's exact name) which is very anti-NC MAX. Take that from TR, wait 5 minutes and watch 20 tanks roll in. Your conclusion - make Planetside 2 bland. Remove specific teamwork and tactics to deal with specific threats because killing them alone is too hard.
The whole basis of the entire argument is that you only ever want to pull a max at choke points, and that people only ever pull maxes at choke points, and that people only ever pull maxes in mass at bio labs. Where its all short range! The only time range is of the benefit to VS/TR max is when NC Maxes are out in the open with no cover. Which....does......not......happen. Every single time you will get chewed up by tanks, aircraft and infantry. There is nothing but disadvantage at range with ANY AI MAX So what if Mercies and Blueshifts can kill 20+ more than NC AI. HA will always do it faster at that range. I don't get it, why does everyone think that NC 20m less range is a fair trade for a 2 second ttk on another max? Thats trading 6 and 2/3 meters for each second of ttk! I'll phrase this again. TR trades 3 seconds of ttk for a larger mag and 20m of range, thats infantry killing range however, Not MAX killing range, because MAX fights are at choke points! NOT THE DAMN WOODS! I know its going to come up about my stats, here they are I'm not a member, I don't use boosts, I didn't rocket pod infantry before AA was common, and I don't gun libs. I'm at 22 and 1/2 days. I've played more than 71% of the highest ranked players in ps2.
I agree with everything said, NC MAX is far superior to VS and TR MAX in situations when a MAX would actually be used. The only time VS and TR MAX's have the advantage is when you might aswell be using a lightning out in the open. Nothing can hold down a capture point harder than an NC MAX. Give all factions high-burst short range AI weapons and NC a medium range sustained fire weapon. With NC MAX you don't get caught in the open unless you don't know how to play and if you're smart you run or even charge between door-ways and ambush enemies around corners, jump off balconies into the centre of a large group etc. FAR better, and these tactics are easy to use and will give you far more success than with either other MAX.
As for teamwork and tactics, I run tightly organized squads and often full platoons open to the community every single day on Matherson and have every day since launch. As for killing maxes alone, I have Auraxium on my c4, 746 of those kills are enemy infantry units. That leaves 254 kills to sunderers, liberators, ESFs, and tanks. That majority of those were manned for the exception of sunderers. So out of 508 kills with the majority being maxes since I dont waste c4 on engineers. Killing maxes alone isnt the problem. There are tactics to defeat scattermaxes camping teleporters and pads. Let me tell you how easy they are. What for SURE DOESNT TAKE TACTICS is to spend 5 bucks on a scattercannon and face a door and instagib that max that walks through. Do you understand how easy it is to hold biolabs as NC? You dont have to use teamwork to camp a door with the most powerful infantry weapons in the game. Scattermaxes are ANTI TEAMWORK, unlike what you have to do to stop it.
This is especially going to be a problem next big patch when MAX suits will render far further than all other infantry, possibly the same range as vehicles? So in large fights every tank and aircraft in 1km will be gunning for you and being inside will be your ONLY option, where the NC MAX is king.
I don't want to nerf NC to oblivion, I hate the VS WAY more than the NC. I want fights with NC to be interesting. Right now they rush to a bio lab and hold it for 10 hours, while the vs and nc cap every other territory on the map right up to the warpgate. Then when the NC finally get bored of farming TR and VS noobs and take the satellites, they either push out and cap adjacently, swap to empty continents or log out. Allatum and Mani are like this every single day, Its stupid.
There's at least another teleporter in the Bio Labs I've fought in and two landing pads with elevators into the facility. Jump pads from external outposts. More than 1 way in. I've even seen ESF's flying around in Bio Labs. Do I understand how easy it is? Not particularly - like I said, don't often fight in them and have been pushed out of them on more than one occasion as an attacker and a defender.
Who said anything about fighting the tanks? I'm just reporting what has happened the ~10 times I've been involved in capping that base. It usually means mass NC slaughter by tank since most of us at that point are infantry, you can't spawn tanks from that location and if we did use tanks on the initial push, real good chance we suffered losses having little to no air cover and fighting off Mossies and Liberators the entire time.
I again ask: relevancy? Because if TR/VS pulled a stunt like that and only brought infantry, guess what they get roflstomped as well. PS: you can totally spawn tanks at impact site btw <_<, maybe you're thinking of somewhere else.
That NC MAX only fight at Bio Labs. It's the place our Platoon fights at the least and we have a number of NC MAX units. Have to since up until the last patch, Reaver cover was almost non-existent.
You still underestimate how limited the range on the NC MAX is. They are similar to infantry shotguns. Even inside biolabs a NC MAX is only effective in certain places. <5m they are fantastic, 5-10m they are good, 10-20m they are OK and beyond that they are terrible. PS: before you say slugs, slugs decrease dps by a large amount.
I speak from real game experience and spending quite a bit of time in a MAX suit with certs spent/SC invested into it. If you are inside a building that is not the size of an auditorium an NC MAX will roflstomp you as another MAX just as if you were an infiltrator. Those shotguns just shoot so fast! Hacksaw has a ROF of 300 when compared to a Heavy Cycler meager 400. The intent of an AI MAX is to hold chokepoints and break the backs of defenses. High Armor and innaccurate guns that work best up close let you know their intent. Against the NC MAX the other two faction MAX just can't do this. When I take point for a group of infantry and go into a room held by VS infantry I push forward, pick out targets of opportunity and will possibly kill a combat medic or an engineer before I go down. Job done. A breach against an NC is normally me going first and taking the first clip of the NC MAX and hoping my squad can do damage while he reloads.
The whole argument about range is wonderful and well balanced when speaking VERSUS INFANTRY. Again, you use maxes for choke points and infantry fights with few vehicles (read biolabs), where range is always <5m and a 2 second ttk beats a 5 second ttk every single time. This whole "30m sweet spot" for TR/VS AI Maxes vs NC Maxes, DOESNT EXIST, because guess where the scatmax is? Sitting at the Choke Point instagibbing other max suits! THE ONLY PLACE YOU NEED A MAX!
Combat range is always <5m in biolabs? What game are you playing? Sure isn't PS2. Your problem is that you fantasize about fights that are always in favor of the NC MAX, therefore the NC MAX is always the best according to you. I see TR and VS MAXes being used all the time at higher ranges with good effect, whereas NC doesn't bring out their AI MAX until there are doors to guard because otherwise it's just a waste of time. If you're so obsessed about breaking chokepoints, use more grenades. They work. Even against MAXes.
Ok, so NC has the best MAX, VS has the best MBT, and TR has the best ESF. My question to you is, do you really want to start a All MAX should be equal in all situations argument?
