Since there is so much forumsiding over War's aggressive welcoming mat. (And lately: Its Vaudevillian Pie in the Face (Or potato in the exhaust)) I hereby am creating a thread to collect the vocal minority's thoughts on how to improve/reel in this terror which is threatening the dying breed that is vehicle warfare. nerf it to the satisfaction of both parties. Below are some ideas that are borne from the stimulating discussions that has been raging posted in the last few weeks and can't possibly reflect my own biased agenda for engineer/vehicle supremacy because I suck so hard at either it's not even funny... (And that's not getting into my atrocious Scythe skills*) *Or complete lack thereof. * Slightly less damage. - Slightly less direct impact damage from throwing them at a target. (May be negated by arming delay nurf further down) * Dramatic increase in the number of active mines one can maintain. - No increase in the number of mines you can carry. * No more stacking - minimum distance between each mine. - Putting a brick of C4 on top of a mine should be okay. - No I don't know how you're supposed to do this without fiddling with that awful 'deployment' mechanic turrets and ammo kits use. Make the mines migrate like spidercrabs or something if they detect eachother too close by. Just fix it. * Maintain throw mechanic. - give it a delay between throws - or slow down the animation itself. - Allow ammo packs to be thrown too. off-topic! * Make mines stick. - Not onto people, but walls, tanks, terminals. - Alternatively, make this a certable feature. - Obviously this is already a thing, but it's apparently more the case of the thing exploding upon impact... Which is not a problem to a well-equipped engineer, but people take offense at lateral thought. * Give mines an arming delay. - From the moment it sticks to a surface to it actively being triggerable by its intended target. This will override the impact damage one since it doesn't explode on impact... Since thats what seems to bother people. Clearly. * Make mines more explosive resistant. - Not to the point of immunity, just enough to make clearing them less breezy. * Replace proximity trigger with pressure trigger. - I wish I could name the originator of this one but it's such a recurring suggestion it's hard to pin down a single culprit author - This would of course negate the Sticky-Bomb function. - It's also realistic... Back in the 13th century, thus predating tanks but apparently not landmines. Please show a modicum of respect to your peers and observe civilized conduct in your discussions. All thoughts are welcome. Ad-hominems are not. Attack the argument, not the person behind it. And kindly do not drag 'real life examples' into it, Real Life is a far more awesome and crazy place than Planetside 2 can ever hope to be, where people are not afraid of improvisation or thinking outside arbitrary and imaginary rulesets. Sometimes to the aggravation of Geneva... And will not hesitate to one-up a poorly researched statement. Yes I realise there's no suggestions for any of the other types of mines we can drop all over the place, or even C4 which can be jury-rigged as mines. But apparently the complete lack of complaints indicates that they're working just fine... If anyone can raise an issue or something, feel free.
How would pressure triggers work? Actual physical contact? Magrider is either immune due to no actual ground contact, or has the biggest hit area if the Magrider exerts pressure equally across the entire bottom, while tracked vehicles only have two small strips.
Agreed, contact-only triggers would make it ridiculously difficult to hit tracked tanks since they can just drive over the mines without having the treads touch, but Magriders would get no such ability. Proximity detonation should stay for the sake of balance, but what about this: If we don't want mines to be used against stationary vehicles, implement a minimum speed that a target vehicle must be moving at in order to trigger the mine. Maybe 5-10 kph. This does several things. It prevents engineers from jihading sunderers immediately, and if the driver is careful he can drive off the mines. If he's not paying attention or if he panics, dead, and vehicles that are speeding along roads are still vulnerable. Also, we already have directional damage when shooting at tanks, why does that not apply to mines right now? If they're below the vehicle, make them do full damage. If they're on top, do much less damage.
All of those suggestions have been beaten like a dead horse for the past several weeks. There is absolutely no need for mines to be adjusted because they are supposed to be a counter to vehicles. I will never understand why people want to see something nerfed when there are already several counters in game to utilize. Anti-Tank Mine Counters: 1. mine guard 2. be a smart driver 3. shoot the engineer 4. get nightvision 5. defend your bus 6. deploy proximity mines around your bus (this pro tip is free no charge) They are called Anti-Tank Mines not Slightly-Annoying Mines.
What Harry Beavers said. Sry but thats perfectly my oppinion. They are supposed to be hardcounters to vehicles and work exactly like that. In 9 out of 10 cases its your own fault for loosing your bus. Same goes for tanks (bloodlust on my mate`s and my side..both firing in one direction=engi sneaked up on us=dead)
Ah... there's the explanation for the thread. No experience with either mines or vehicles. Simply because people are complaining about something, does NOT mean it needs a change. People will complain for the sole purpose to complain. Compiling the whining demands to make life easier for one specific group is NOT the answer. If it were, we would have all had every toy/sweet we wanted at children and been allowed to do whatever we want. Just because people are complaining does NOT mean there is a problem, ESPECIALLY when it's forum based. If something is working fine, how many people are going to make forums about how perfectly it's working? -Almost none. They're going to keep playing as they are. Instead of simply taking all the complaints and putting them together as a "what we should do with mines (since i have no experience with them)" forum, we should figure out if: 1) there is a problem and 2) why there is so much raging. Unlike the original poster, I have lots of experience with using tank mines and sunderers alike. From my personal experience, I can personally say that: -Tank mines can be deployed at about the right speed -Tank mines feel good with HOW they are deployed (throwing) -Tank mine damage should actually be changed slightly *give tank mines the ability to have a percent chance to critically hit without mineguard *increase damage of mines -Tank mines should give a barely audible beeping sound when being approached and when being placed *adds to the terror/chaos factor. More fun, and could save a few vehicles lives if they have luck and quick reflexes. Now, why is there so much raging about land mines? Well because your car just instantly got blown up without warning or remorse and there is nothing you could have done about it. Solution? (Comming from someone who didn't use mineguard for a looooong time) -Find a platoon and have flashes go in front of your armor -Don't be first in line -Use night vision -Always avoid infantry -Suck it up and use mineguard. It costs 30 certs people. If you are going to make the main force deploy sunderer, suck it up and get mineguard. You have the choice of getting extra exp with ammo crate (since repair sundy doesnt give exp and ammo sundy gives exp if you're not in a squad/platoon) or staying alive to get exp from spawning people. Greed or safety? You had the decision, stop raging. If you are any other vehicle, you have plenty of other options and no excuse except carelessness or stupidity. The reason why people rage is because of their own greed and carelessness bit them in the butt and now they don't get the cookie they were hoping for. They are like children. Some suggestions on behalf of victims of tank mines that I think would be compromisable. -Decrease activation time on tank mines *as soon as you place the mine, If there is a vehicle, it goes off (this will cause the land mine to blow up in the engineer's face if he's placing it underneath stationary vehicles. Without high level of explosive resistant gear, this should kill the engineer before he can place a second tank mine) -Allow for the IFF smoke to be upgraded to send out a small EMP pulse that temporarily disables nearby explosives (tank mines, C4, etc) *after 8 seconds the explosives are ready to be detonated again *any explosives destroyed within the down period do not explode -Proximity Defence system *when hostile infantry are too close to the vehicle, the vehicle electrocutes itself and emits flames in all directions from under the vehicle *kills nearby enemies and friendlies alike *may be triggered manually with a button *sheds off any "stuck" C4 and disables any nearby land mines *25 second cooldown (also good for making smores, barbeque, in-laws)
- Eliminate the divide between AI and AV mines: Make Engineers carry HE mines that do damage to both AV and AI. - Vastly increase mines carried/deployable: Right now, having only two mines means that you need to hoard them. Engineers should be able to carry 5 uncerted, and 20 with full certs. - Lower mine damage: This makes being able to carry 20 mines not overpowered. 2 mines to kill an infantryman, 6 mines to kill a Sunderer. This increases the time an Engineer needs to be at a Sundy to kill it, making suicide engies less viable, but not removing them. It also means you cannot suicide engie on the first cert investment. - Lower resource cost: As we'll be carrying more mines, they should cost less, to allow one to carry more mines. - Deployed Mine indicator: We need some kind of indicator to tell us if one of our mines has gone off, and it's safe to deploy another without despawning any of our other mines. Right now we get XP for the kill, but it doesn't notify us that it was a mine kill, and it's easy to miss in combat. We need something persistent and check able added to the HUD when we pull out our mines. - MINE PERSISTANCE: Mines need to persist in the world beyond your session. It's impossible to set up meaningful defenses because even if you organize an entire outfit of Engineers and do nothing but lay mines and man turrets, as soon as you log out, your prepared mine-field vanishes.
I've expressed my thoughts many times on mines in the 51297501275029175902175901275902179051790571290752107 whine threads we have just like this. I just hope that they refund mine certs and the utility pouch certs if they do change them so I can pick a better class to kill vehicles with as I found that the HA is much much better at the same things the Engineer does with them. PS: I hope you all remember in this discussion that Engineers have a ridiculous repair rate, meaning that if you don't one shot the vehicle it won't do **** but give the tank driver more experience. Meaning that Flak armor becomes even more of a necessity than it currently is and the utility pouch becomes even more worthless than it currently is. Mines are perfectly fine, it's a severe case of lack of l2p. The only way mines would be useful as mines is if they: - couldn't be damaged by anything to make them explode - IRNV didn't light them up - you couldn't see them on the screen - mineguarded sunderers weren't immune to mines or Engineers couldn't repair mine damage - they didn't cost 75 infantry resources a pop - you didn't have to give up your suit slot to carry more than 2 Pretty much all of these have to apply for mines to actually become useful as mines.
Mines right now work like C4 ought to work. It's not necessarily wrong, but it means mines are just better C4 for blowing vehicles. Or a trigger for setting off the C4 you slapped on the mine. It's not a unique gameplay mechanic if they're just demo charges for vehicles. You really only have to have a few of those and even partial versions work. Mines should be able to be seen, and should be able to be disabled. For an easy fix, just make them immune to indirect explosions - then you can't set them off with the tank cannon, you need to hop out and clear them with your pistol/rifle. Clearly if they do less damage and you carry more, they'd have to be reduced in resource cost so you can afford more. The problem with IRNV is that it currently lights up any rendered object. If we went to a real CE setup with mines, I'd rather see Mineguard go away, or become a 50m mine-detector. It could be nerfed to reduce less damage also.
i realy would like to see a PS1 style display showing how many mines/deployables you have placed. aside from that im happy...
Neither Personal Mines nor C4 is fine. A single Personal mine isn't enough to kill a healthy trooper with nanoweave or Flak armor. A C4 charge costs 200certs and isn't even able to kill a MBT. Not to mention that 2 C4 bars, which cost 700 certs) are unable to kill a single sunderer. So no they are not fine. Not by a long shot. C4 should have the same power (or more) as 2 AT mines. AI mines should come as pair, because its the same cost as AT mines if IIRC. And any complains you have about AT mines can be summed up with: "You didn't use Mineguard". Even a Flash can withstand a mine with Mineguard 2 (technically 1 but it burns up before you can react most of the time). A Sunderer can't be blown up when fitted with Mineguard. You need 3 mines in that case. And if you don't oneshot the damn Tank, you just wasted 150 Infantry ressources. Why? Because they stop, repair for 15 seconds and drive on. How i know that? because my MBT is fitted with Mineguard and thats exactly what happens when i roll over some mines. You slow my down. Its not my problem if people complain about mines if they don't use the protection available. If Mines should get reduced in power, they have to be reduced by the same amount in terms of costs and the amount being carried by the Engineer has to be increased on the same basis. Why? Because they are bloody useless if they don't oneshot a tank. And if they destroyed your Sunderer? Well next time you will maybe buy a Mineguard or have it defended by Infantry. Or better yet.. both.
2 things: 1 - The problem that people are having with mines is their inability or refusal to understand the type of game PS2 is. This is not a realistic military shooter. Yes there are realistic elements but it's not 100% true to life. In the game you think you're playing mines are proactive. Ex. Bases are defended. Scouts report enemies coming in from the north of x base. Engineers see this and start mining the roads to the north to soften up and slow the enemy advance. PS2 is reactive. The zerg shows up at an empty base. The defense spawns into the base (if they even bother) and at that point has to make due with what they've got. 2 - They've tried it your way nerf callers. They tried it and almost immediately reverted the change. Why? See point 1. What they did made mines useless with the numerous previously stated countermeasures that already exist.
Uh no, you have to have almost all of those. Otherwise mines are a waste of infantry resources. Yes, in YOUR opinion maybe they're worth it because it enables you to do something, but in my opinion they would not be, because dealing with them takes more effort and time than it's worth And boohoo, an explosive works like another explosive?! WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT?! You do realize that all these threads do is get those mine haters, who hate them AS LANDMINES to whine about them. Now to add to that it's those people who refuse to use Mineguard and keep losing their free spawn exp at random locations.
Let's not pull out the back and forth of 'in YOUR opinion.' Your opinion, my opinion they are both as valid/invalid from the standpoint of 'they're just one person's opinion'. Lets argue mechanics and viability, not over 'opinion.' Basically, you're of the opinion that if it doesn't give you XP or a kill, then it's not worth resources, correct? And if it doesn't kill a tank instantly, it's useless as you gain no certs/XP because the tank won't be killed, the driver will hop out and repair, and you'll be out resources with nothing to show for it, right? I'm not looking at it in that fashion. I'm looking at how it would affect play from both sides, not just the minelayer. With that in mind, look at your assertions one what would be required for minefields: "- couldn't be damaged by anything to make them explode" I disagree. Counterplay needs to be an element - that means a way for the enemies to disarm them. Whether that's EMP grenades or shooting individual mines, they need a counter. I agree that being able to clear the road in front of you with a few tank shells is stupid and has invalidated defensive mines - they ought to require direct damage to be destroyed and have 100% explosion resistance. Yes, this means you may waste mines, but that's downside of a weapon that is place and forget. "- IRNV didn't light them up" This IS an issue, but not a major one. Again, if the ability to easily remove mines via tank cannon is removed, then the driver who sees the mines still needs to exit the vehicle and clear them - allowing you to shoot him in the face. I'd still prefer that they not show up on IRNV - it's not like the mines generate heat like vehicle engines and bodies. "- you couldn't see them on the screen" Again, counterplay needs to be a thing. They SHOULD show up on the screen. They're not high profile. A sharp eyed player should be able to spot the mines and avoid them. It makes placing mines with skill rewarding. Maybe a 'mine detector' should be a cert option, either as radar or a vision overlay, but mines should be visible to those who look for them. Not obvious, like IRNV, but visible. "- mineguarded sunderers weren't immune to mines or Engineers couldn't repair mine damage" Obviously if we're giving ways to spot and remove them, the need to do good damage - mineguard should probably be reduced in effect. Not allowing Engineers to remove mine damage is bizarre and runs contrary to everything else, currently in the game. Ideally, I'd see mineguard removed entirely if mines were moved to act more like PS1 mines, but a reduction to keep a single digit number of mines to kill a tank would be sufficient. "- they didn't cost 75 infantry resources a pop" Oh I definitely agree with this - if mines do less damage and you carry more of them, you'd have to reduce cost considerably. Ideally I'd see mines as a 10-20 resource cost per mine, perhaps certable to lower cost. Mines should be throwaway, and that design must be reflected by their cost. "- you didn't have to give up your suit slot to carry more than 2" That'd be fine, but given that you wouldn't be using them like demo-packs any longer, I don't see the issue. If one is able to lay down a minefield and then bugger off to do something else, the fact that your mines are already out means you can go swap to C4 or something else instead, so taking up a slot means pretty much nothing other than you'd be low on options if you got attacked while mining an area. Please stop projecting. I like mines, I use them as demo packs at the moment because they are cheaper and more effective than certing C4, and I have mineguard on my Sundy. Of course mines and C4 are both explosives. That doesn't change the fact that I (and quite a few PS1 vets) would like to be able to use them as more than expensive demo-packs. I'm not calling on mines to be changed because I feel they are broken, but because I feel that they don't do anything new, despite the fact that they could offer a new dimension of play. Defense is pointless in the current game. I want to be able to make defense mean something, and mines are part of it. As it stands, a game where all you can do is endlessly zerg forward, capping bases until the human wave loses momentum and gets pushed back by the opposing zerg who will do the same, with base defense being a largely Sisyphean task is not a game with depth. I, and others, would like to play a game with depth.
So, since counterplay is a thing, what kind of counterplay can I do in the following situations: - getting hit by a sniper hiding really far away in some bushes - getting hit by a Dalton/Zepher from really high up - getting hit by a random HE shell from far away - turning around the corner and running into a decent HA - turning around the corner and running into a decent scatmax Guess what: there's nothing you can do there. And those things are way harder to spot then mines. Pretty much the only vehicle in the game that you can't spot mines and stop in time on right now are Flashes and Lightnings if they're going downhill. Pretty much anything else you can just see the mines lying on the ground. Most people aren't obviously good enough to spot them but why should we care about people who don't want to learn to play better. And yes, I am of the opinion that if I have the choice between using something which gives me exp and takes a similar amount of time and resources vs something that doesn't I will obviously pick the one that gives me the opportunity to gain exp. For instance: if mines are a "deterrent" then I'll obviously use C4 because that can kill stuff. Deterring doesn't give ME anything and considering how there's zero point in actually holding on to a facility it doesn't matter. And yes, it's a problem. If I run over mines in my Mineguarded Sunderer I'm happy for it most of the time because it's free repairing exp for me. It doesn't do absolutely anything to my Sunderer, because repairing that damage takes a whopping 5 seconds. And this game's depth is taking the mechanics of the game and taking advantage of them. Eg combining C4 and AT mines to create larger minefields, getting a friend to do the same. The game doesn't get more depth if an Engineer has to pop out every 30 meters to repair a tank.
I think SOE have to modify AV mine to Explode just after put them near enemy vehicle.(for instant kill engi who just put them) They explode just 1 sec after they setted. what is it? a Time bomb? this AV mine must used for 'Mine' not a 'Timer bomb' This timer bomb thing almost removed c4's specialization
