[Suggestion] MCG Spin up needs to go to match TTK

Discussion in 'Heavy Assault' started by Canaris, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. Saviorself

    What tests were these? At what ranges? Under what conditions? Is player skill a factor? How many people? I can make a test too where the CARV would wipe the MCG. That would be at any range beyond 20 meters. You are trying to sell me a gun, that would only be effective in close range, with the support of multiple friendlies, against multiple enemies, with only marginally more effectiveness than the LMG which trumps it in all other situations. A weapon that would get you wiped in any 1v1 combat. If I wanted that, I would get a MAX with an engineer. It would eat all your MCG rounds and spit it right back with dual mercies.
  2. Saviorself

    No, it is not an AOE weapon. Each individual bullet can only damage the target it hits. It does not cause splash damage. If the MCG is an AOE weapon, then all weapons in the game are AOE weapons. It does not have "area of effect", you can argue that it can cause area denial, which every other weapon could do also.

    Furthermore, every weapon can be effective when engaging multiple enemies, it is merely a factor of range. A sniper rifle does not lose much effectiveness engaging multiple enemies at long distances. An assault rifle does not lose much effectiveness engaging multiple enemies at medium range either. This doesn't make them AOE weapons.

    Take this wiki definition. These are AOE weapons, not a bullet hose.

    "For example: in the role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons, a fireball spell will deal damage to anyone within a certain radius of where it strikes. This term is not limited to just role-playing games, however; in most tactical strategy gamesartillery weapons have an area of effect that will damage anyone within a radius of the strike zone."
  3. Canaris

    Saviour is 100% correct in his terminology, bullets do direct damage not aoe just because they're sprayed everywhere that would be a COF
  4. Kyutaru

    I only proved my own point, as I've stated since the topic started that the MCG is a room clearing weapon, not a solo friendly one. Now's a good time to quote myself!

    If you want to attempt the same thing with a CARV, be my guest, you're going to be less effective at it than the MCG because of the CARV's inferior rate of fire and inferior recoil. The spinup makes it a specialized weapon, not a worthless weapon. You're the same as those guys on the infiltrator forums arguing that sniper rifles suck and we should all play heavy. Your inability to draw out a weapon's potential and understand its purpose does not make the weapon itself impotent. Statistically, it is the best fullauto sprayer TR even has, the drawback of the spinup keeps you from using it for every single battle.

    Some of us actually use our three loadouts to swap between situational weapons.

    The MCG has a short effective range, so it was tested in a Bio Lab, as there is no sense in testing a short range specialized weapon at sniping distance. There were no rules or conditions, simply 12 CARVs vs 12 MCGs in a firefight around the SCU. Player skill was factored out through reversing the roles, the results were similar. Teams would move in pairs because soloing is suicide, but the MCG would always gain the upper hand by rounding the corner with fullauto active. MCG teams played ambusher, which is to their strength. CARV teams played assault, also to their strengths. It would behoove you to know that the CARV and MCG have identical standing ADS accuracy, yet the MCG surpasses it in recoil, rate of fire, and hipfire accuracy. In fact, the only thing the CARV does better than the MCG is ADS while moving.

    My guess is you only ever tried to use the MCG while ADSing and moving... great job reading the weapon specs, sport.

    I'm not attempting to sell you anything, you and the original poster are attempting to alter a worthwhile gun that is in all respects superior to the CARV after the spinup. It's the spinup you're fixated on even though the spinup is merely a precursor to massacre.

    Be my guest and use two players to accomplish one thing. The MAX is slow, it's for base defense at best, setting up like a turret to mow through infantry. It can't be healed, requires an engineer that can be shot FAR more easily than it, has no shield or overshield that can be regenerated, can't hide behind chest-high walls, can't dodge rockets easily, can't chuck grenades, can't fire launchers, can't respawn indefinitely on any spawn point... I mean do we really need to go through the differences between MAXes and Heavies here? If you want to use a MAX for area denial, do it. If you want to use a Heavy for area denial, do it. They have different tradeoffs.

    Every other gun doesn't have a spinup time. Guns with spinup times are most effective when they empty their clip into packs of enemies, even by going one at a time to do so. They remain crowd clearing weapons unsuited for single combat. Every other gun also doesn't have the superior rate of fire, recoil, and hipfire accuracy of the chaingun that make it a prime demolisher of groups being statistically superior to every gun that group is carrying. We're not arguing that one minigun vs four people should be a win every time for the minigunner, that would be ABSURD even if he had a CARV and acts as a skill differential example. However, four miniguns vs four people WOULD win every time. Twelve vs twelve is the same. Entire Bio Lab vs Entire Attacking Force armed with MCGs is just complete decimation.

    Might I also remind you that the AOE weapon was referring to the minigun in RPG terms. If you never played any of the Fallout games, I suggest you do so. Cone effect was quite popular for SMGs and miniguns.

    That's in shooters, not the games the term was directed towards. It's like none of you guys have ever played a Fallout game.


    Quote: "MG units spray death over a large area and can hit multiple enemies at the same time.

    The Machine Gun class is the beefy, big brother to the Sub Machine Gun class. For the soldier that likes to think of himself as the next Rambo, the MG sports impressive damage and a very wide cone of fire. Don't expect to be running around very often or very fast though, those guns weigh a ton.
    These guns are big, bulky, and deal loads of damage across a wide radius. Progressing up to better guns does lighten the burden a bit. Try to avoid clost combat, as these monsters aren't lethal up close. The firing cone will harm friendlies, so check your fire first. These weapons also supress targets, meaning no counterattack."

    No one here ever tried to claim the MCG is an AOE weapon in PlanetSide 2, but if that's what you fellows took at as, then that's strike three for reading comprehension failures. The only thing I ever said when referencing PlanetSide 2 was that the MCG was a room-clearing weapon, evident by its overall superiority to other weapons and the distinct drawback of the spinup time encouraging relentless fullauto.

    The MCG was described in terms of an RPG game for the sake of Canaris, where the AOE weapon notion is applicable.

    Yes, it is. But it's also a balanced weapon, not some devourer of souls. It's designed for multi-man combat, yet 1 vs 5 is still 1 vs 5. You need allies to support you in handling the multi-man combat in the first place. Think of it this way... 4 LMGs + 1 MCG vs 5 LMGs, the team with the MCG mixed in is going to come out ahead unless he's focused down instantly (in which case they'll still come out ahead because he acted like the tank). You only ever see battles this dense in base struggles, the MCG shouldn't be used anywhere else.

    The difference between the MCG and every other LMG you attempt to clear a room with is that the MCG will retain better bullet precision, allowing it to sustain fire with less accuracy loss. It is nearly twice as precise as the CARV because it doesn't kick around. The extra ROF is just icing on the cake.
  5. Canaris

    your still wrong tho that's COF in RPG terms not AOE, the explosive weapons like the grenade launcher or machine gun launcher would be an AOE weapon but we're getting off topic. By the way I'm a huge fan of the fall out games, just bought all the expansions for New Vegas during the sale. ;)

    I'll say fair enough you've made your position clear you want to keep the spin up on the MCG so it doesn't change in anyway, I think having the spin up on it ruins the gun with the games current TTK. Let see if anyone wants to weigh in here or will the topic just fall by the way side :)
  6. Kyutaru

    Actually, AOE is the correct term used for conical effects too. What you're thinking of is Blast vs Cone. They are still both AOEs. :)
  7. Saviorself

    The testing is skewed. You put the MCG on the ambush (aka Defending team) and put the CARV team on assault (the Attacking team). Biolab engagements will always favor the defender, and with everything else being equal, the only way for the attacker to win is through superior numbers.

    Secondly, the fighting all took place around the SCU with everyone having knowledge of what they are up against. Everyone anticipated a firefight just around the corner. They also knew the exact unit composition of the enemy. Spinning up the MCG is not an issue here, you know there is an enemy just around that corner. That isn't a benefit you will have in an uncontrolled engagement.

    Thirdly, you are correct that LMGs are better than the MCG for ADS'ing on the move because the MCG has NO OPTICS. With any other LMG or rifle I can ADS while strafing in and out of cover accurately. With proper optics I could also track targets more easily and be able to swap scopes for different engagement ranges.

    The MCG is a one trick pony that comes with a whole host of handicaps. Having to rely on numbers to engage the enemy, and being gimped in surprise 1v1 encounters, to me it is an awful tradeoff. That is my stance, and you have yours.

    "Actually, AOE is the correct term used for conical effects too. What you're thinking of is Blast vs Cone. They are still both AOEs."

    According to that definition, all infantry weapons in the game are AoE weapons. Because all those weapons have a cone of fire. That would make the point completely moot.
  8. vampwood

    MCG is useless, the MSW-R is way better at the same role of hipfire heroing. Sure its fun to use the MCG as a silly weapon but if you are using you are gimping yourself and your squads, the spinup time and the horrible accuracy at even short ranges is hilarious. Kyutara stop bringing wikipedia terms, definitions and real life into this, its a video game. IN THIS game, the mcg is a pointless weapon because it provides no benefit over other weapons that can be brought into its role.
  9. Kyutaru

    This is what, the fourth time now you injected words into my post? The teams were not arranged into defenders and attackers, I stated the MCG teams used ambushing tactics, not defensive tactics, such as prefiring around corners, using decoys to draw attention, darting behind cover, targeting groups, retreating from single combat, and surprise bullet hell suppression. They were simply better at supporting each other. The CARV teams used some of the same tactics but they also knew they had the upper hand in direct confrontation and sought to exploit that advantage, always attempting to get the MCGs off spinup or firing from range. As stated, the teams made up from *THREE* different outfits also swapped roles, and none were given specific instructions on how to fight or what tactics to use, they fought how they thought the weapons were best used. The MCG teams were simply better at supporting each other because of the difference in weapon strength. Direct confrontation worked for the CARVs quite well, and many MCG users died without firing a bullet, yet the ones that remained standing would finish the job in their stead because once the weapon started firing, it was just plain better than the CARV.

    Around the SCU means that gigantic area at the center of the heart of the bio lab that holds more space and engagement room than anywhere else in the entire facility, including ample distance for the CARV users to make use of their "greater than 20m" ranges. Which they did. And still lost doing. Because your claim amounts to horse dung. The MCGs were just as effective at those ranges.

    What was referred to was the accuracy of the weapon itself, as the CARV has a 0.4 moving ADS accuracy while the MCG has a 0.9 accuracy base. With COF bloom, that's equivalent to the accuracy of the CARV after it has already taken a shot. Not a great way to start a precision contest! Yet with hipfire, the weapon remained mobile and accurate and actually performed better while strafing in and out of cover because it allowed the users to prefire their spinups. As far as engagement ranges go, we're not testing long range combat here with a short range gun. At these ranges, few people use anything beyond the 1x Reflex scope, which leaves the MCG at no disadvantage beyond the iron sights, while still being more accurate and superior to the CARV while standing still in ADS!

    Of course it's a one trick pony, I stated as much at the beginning of the thread. Only NOW do you believe me?! The tradeoff it possesses comes for having the strongest stats of any heavy weapon, it's ideal for group combat and horrendous at single combat. This isn't "One Gun to Rule Them All" and I'm starting to think that's exactly what you're looking for. Hasn't the whole Air > Tank > Flak Cannon > Air schtick hinted to you that this is a team game? The MCG has a valued place in a team in certain situations where it can prove itself above and beyond other weapons, that is without a doubt, but you despise it BECAUSE it shines too brightly in one area and not enough everywhere else?? When engaging a group with fullauto, assuming the spinup isn't an issue for X number of reasons (squad support, massive base assault, prefiring), you are now holding down the trigger on the most powerful automatic weapon in the game... and you're not satisfied?

    What definition? I didn't GIVE you a definition in the first place. For the last time... machine gun = AOE in RPGs because it's designed for group combat and mass suppression, SEE Fallout/Frontline/XCOM for examples. It actually HAS a cone of fire in these types of games, because it's INTENDED to fire into a group of enemies. I didn't say it's an AOE weapon in PlanetSide because PlanetSide is not a god damn RPG, it simply has the same role as a machine gun has in an RPG where they *are* AOE weapons -- miniguns are designed to attack groups of enemies with fullauto fire, the superior stats, superior rate of fire, and spinup encourage this type of usage. It is less effective if you are not attempting to drain your clip after the spinup, and it would be pointless to drain your clip into a single enemy.

    Don't confuse me with Saviorself. I showed an example of Minguns being used as an Area of Effect weapon because of the crap he started about them not being comparable to area of effect weapons in RPGs simply because they shoot one bullet at a time.

    No other gun can be brought into the room-clearing role. The MCG has superior, LITERALLY SUPERIOR, stats to all other guns attempting this role, making it the top choice of weapons for doing so. The one and only disadvantage it faces is the spinup time and that is alleviated by spinning up *ONCE* and then emptying your magazine into a room of hostiles with a gun that far surpasses theirs. The MSW-R can't even come close to this because although it has the hipfire accuracy to act as DUELIST, it doesn't have the potential 200 round clip the MCG can offer nor the EXTREME precision offered by it's miniscule recoil that beats out every LMG in the game.

    You don't use the MCG to charge blindly into point B. You prefire around the corner and use it to kill the people who are already there. This gun has the fastest kill time of any heavy weapon period, and the precision to use it. You're doing it wrong.

    Those are the TTKs for guns IN THIS GAME (since you like the phrase).
    Identify which TR heavy weapon is going to murder a bunch of people the quickest.
  10. SpankyH

    So I skipped most of your little flame war, but I want to weigh in with a bit of actual experience. I started using the MCG pretty heavily a few days ago, and as of last night, my stats page said that I had been using it for about 9 total hours of game time, and had put around 35,000 rounds through it.

    While the spin up can be a bit annoying, I honestly have to say, if it didn't have the spin up time, it would be totally OP. Seriously.

    Also, I totally disagree about the "hold down the trigger and use it as a bullet hose" strategy. You can use it like that, but I have found that it is much more effective at anything other than point blank range (where you just hold down the trigger and hope for the best) to fire 1-2 second bursts with it. I know that seems counter intuitive, but the bullet spread for those first few seconds is super tight. After about 2-3 seconds of firing, you will wound everyone in a small area, but you wont actually kill anyone.

    Conversely, by shooting little bursts, you maximize the advantage of its high RoF, low recoil, and tight spread. You also maximize the disadvantage of the spin up, but at longer ranges I have found that to be pretty negligible, and mostly counteracted by the MCG's super short reset time after each burst.

    Additionally, the expanded magazine gives you a 200(!) round magazine, which gives you enough ammo to fire speculative bursts at places where an enemy might pop out. Often, they will pop out just as the gun starts firing, and at shorter ranges, immediately die.

    Seriously, the MCG is great. Its different than the other LMG's, and it might not be the gun for you, which is ok. Now that I have the hang of it though, I don't think I will ever use another gun. My only wish for it is that it be able to mount an NV sight, and maybe have that little light/LED looking thing on the back of the gun model actually show something :p
  11. Bubbalicious

    I will gladly trade you a Lasher for a MCG any day. You can smile as both the Vanu and NC "special" heavy weapons are just utterly horrid. At least you have a weapon that works as intended :)
  12. Saviorself

    "Of course it's a one trick pony, I stated as much at the beginning of the thread. Only NOW do you believe me?!"

    Oh wait, but isn't that exactly what I said at the start? My whole point is that the MCG is a one trick pony, that can't even do its one trick well enough to distinguish it from its peers.

    Don't believe me? Lets look at the numbers.

    MCG TTK at 0 meter(s): 0.45 seconds
    CARV TTK at 0 meter(s): 0.48 seconds
    MSW-R TTK at 0 meter(s): 0.48 seconds
    CARV-S TTK at 0 meter(s): 0.52 seconds

    You get a MERE 0.03 seconds faster TTK at 0 meters with the MCG, assuming you have spun up prior to engagement. You lose access to optics, forward grip, suppressor and silencer options along with the choice of soft point or high velocity ammo. If you get caught with your pants down, and it will happen, the spin up time makes the MCG kill SLOWER than all other LMGs.

    Lets look at that spreadsheet you provided again. Lets look at TTK averaged across ranges.

    MCG TTK average: 2.43 seconds
    CARV TTK average: 1.46 seconds
    MSW-R TTK average: 1.36 seconds
    CARV-s TTK average: 1.57 seconds

    The MCG kills a whopping 1 second SLOWER than the CARV/MSW-R when TTK is averaged. This is a hilariously poor choice for a gun. It kills 0.03 seconds faster at 0 meters (that's if you spin up, if you don't you are dead), and gets completely and hopelessly outclassed at every other range.

    You tried to justify its worth by fabricating up a test to prove it. Well I have used this weapon, and I can tell your test means **** all. The numbers are on my side, and experience is on my side too. The CARV, with its 100 rd magazine was enough for ALL my room clearing. I have never ran out of ammo clearing out a room. You think people will line up like ducks for you to burn through all 200 rounds and mow them down? You will be killed before that happens.

    A weapon that is horrendous at single combat, and barely any better against multiple enemies is not a weapon worth sinking 1200 certs into. I don't care what sort of RPG definition you pull out, this is Planetside, and versatility along with TTK is king.
  13. Canaris

    actually I was doing some research on the new Lasher, to see how it compared to the MCG & Jackhammer, your right all three factions traditional HA are pretty bad. Last minute throw together to sooth PS1 vets feathers from the look of it :(
    Maybe we should expand this thread to fixing all three
  14. Kyutaru

    This is the same mistake that people made when comparing the MSW-R and Orion to all other weapons in their class. TTK is not the defining characteristic of all weapons, the values pulled in these spreadsheets assume the EXACT SAME ACCURACY FOR ALL WEAPONS, a 0m allocation of shots that never miss. This is why people like you need to not read spreadsheets... you're horrible at interpreting what the values actually mean in terms of gameplay and balance. You didn't figure out these TTKs yourself, you're simply pointing at *numbers* on a page like a trained chimp expecting to prove something by doing so when the numbers themselves don't even reflect what your point was to begin with, they show the theoretical DPS maximums with which the MCG still surpasses all other LMGs. Look at the numbers yourself. The MCG has a marked advantage over the others and this is for SINGLE COMBAT which we've both said it was BAD AT. The sheet doesn't even take into consideration the fact that it has the LOWEST recoil of those guns, the SAME standing accuracy as the CARV, BETTER hipfire, and can fullauto with a tighter bullet spread than even the ORION. Tack on all of that onto a weapon that STILL has the fastest TTK out of all of them and you STILL think it's a horrible weapon. You should never get caught with your pants down with the MCG because you shouldn't be scouting with it uncertain of what's behind the next corner. Infiltrators fire detectors that tell you what's beyond the corner, the minimap tells you what's there, and other light/heavy assaults take the point. You never see the guy with the giant spinup gun taking the lead, he follows behind and comes up when enemies are packed in on a point and need to be swiftly dealt with using the STRONGEST machine gun there ever will be in this game.

    The difference from one gun to another is miniscule by default across ALL the guns of a certain class, that's called balance. The Minigun is superior, flat out superior, and trades off that superiority with situational usage. It's not barely better against multiple enemies, it simply can't SOLO KILL five players at once because you are only ONE player. It's still going to surpass every gun in that list at harming and killing those groups, it's simply not a DOOM CANNON. You're expecting a night and day difference when it's already surpassed every LMG in the game, that's PLENTY for it to do. If you want to murder five people, bring four people + 1 MCG because it tips the balance in YOUR FAVOR. This is not Team Fortress 2, the heavy minigun isn't supposed to kill everything in sight by itself. You're still going to need an even body count regardless! Nothing short of a MAX unit is INTENDED to kill more than its fair share of meat excluding skill differences, and the MCG is the butcher himself.

    We've been over this already. The MCG can walk into a room and hold down the fullauto button without losing much accuracy. No LMG can accomplish this same feat, they are ALL worse at sustained fire accuracy than the MCG at close range, the bullet spread of the MCG is bar none the tightest of any heavy weapon. Concentrated bullet fire is a specialty of this weapon. Add to that the fastest ROF and the fastest TTK and you have a weapon that surpasses literally every LMG it encounters. NOTHING beats an MCG that has begun firing, and that is why it has a spinup in the first place. It would be overpowered without it. Removing the spinup would just make it another LMG and it would be required to be nerfed to their level. We don't need another gimped LMG, we need this powerhouse that rips other LMGs apart. Besides the T16, it's the only TR weapon similar to an LMG that can have a 200 round clip and it can have that while still being the superior weapon in firefights!

    It. Clears. Rooms. Try as hard as you may, you cannot find an LMG that beats the MCG in fullauto. It's not supposed to be five times as powerful as everything else in the game or drop enemies just by looking at them, it's supposed to be the biggest and baddest gun in the room and that's exactly what it ****ing is. Small differences in shooters have large effects, yet despite that the differences here are NOT SMALL when *actual* accuracy becomes a part of the TTK equation, not simply point blank can't miss shooting.

    You're then averaging TTKs on a gun that you should not be sniping with in the first place. Versatility is NOT the king of PlanetSide 2, walking over to the weapon terminal and putting your minigun away when you're done with it is the king of PlanetSide 2. I have three loadouts, specced for close combat, mixed combat, and long range. I will NEVER use the same exact gun and the same exact loadout 24/7, not when the situation specifically calls for a specialized role. There is no reason to ever use a TMG-50 when assaulting the interior of a Bio Lab unless you HAVE NO OTHER GUN. Certain guns are better for certain situations, and that's called specialization. Take your versatility propaganda back to Call of Duty, it's not applicable here. The Grounder and Skep Launchers are characteristically defining weapons featuring specialization for a heavy.

    I'm done arguing with you on this, you're simply a glorified troll. The weapon surpasses every other in its weight class and has a disadvantage to balance that, asking for more than that is asking for god mode.
  15. Elbryan

    I wish I could keep it in a ready to fire state. It's stupid that I have to hold down the trigger if I see more than one enemy. If I let go, it takes another second to start shooting again, even though it never stopped spinning between the short jump from target to target.

    MCG is also very inaccurate. If you're half decent, you'll always get better (TTK) results with a LMG.
  16. Kyutaru

    They had that functionality in other games, and we were all surprised it wasn't here. That's definitely a suggestion many people have been clamoring for as the spinup already reduces your movement speed, it's not free.