LMG Stats & Balance / Rework ideas.

So, I started this post as a reply to Shiaari's in another thread, but it got a tad long, so i'll toss it here instead.

(Context)

I've said my piece on the new AV secondaries and overall balance there, I suppose it's time for LMGs.

With regard to getting rid of all .75 ADS LMGs... Eh, I don't really like the idea of homogenizing everyone's LMGs to a single speed and leaving them there, not without full rebalance of every affected LMG, anyway.

Here's what I would do to LMG's in general.
FIrst, here's a fun bit of data. My source is http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/ - I'll spare the screenshots in this post, as we're not dealing with that many data points in general.


The CQB Oriented LMG KPU (Kills per unique) of each faction in the hands of BR100s.

• Orion: 20.55

• MSW-R: 27.23

• Anchor: 28.28

The same weapon KPU, in the hands of BR 76-100

• Orion:16.29

• MSW-R: 21.63

• Anchor: 25.26

The same weapon KPU, in the hands of everyone, BR 1-100

• Orion: 12.32

• MSW-R: 18.17

• Anchor: 24.11

The Orion is universally worse then the other factions' competing LMGs, and that's including the Orion's famed and reviled .75 ADS. In the hands of the most experienced players, the NC have the best CQB LMG, the TR are a close second, and the VS are a distant third.

So, why does everyone hate it, you ask? At no level grouping here's why.

It's fairly common knowledge, but i'll state these here. Heavy Assaults are the most played class in Planetside 2. Most infantry kills / fights occur in relatively close quarters.

Average unique users per day, over the last 30 days as of 9-25-2015

• Orion: 3869
• MSW-R: 1240
• Anchor: 784

The problem is that the VS's version of the most played class starts with the best Light Machine Gun for most of the encounters in the game. From the moment their account is created, every single VS player has a friggin' amazing Close Quarters gun. The fact that it allows the user to strafe faster is apparently good enough to warrant it's performance being much lower then the competition, but... there isn't all that MUCH of the competition to compete with in comparison.

There are 3.12 times as many Orion users as there are MSW-R users.
There are 4.83 times as many Orion users as there are Anchor users.

With that huge a difference, despite the inferior individual performance - the sheer numbers of VS with the Orion in a given zerg is more then enough to run over the competition versus numbers like these.

Orion: 3869 average daily users at 12.32 KPU - Total of 48038 kills. (All BR, 1-100)
T9-Carv: 3602 average daily users at 10.3 KPU - Total of 37270 kills (All BR, 1-100)
NC6 Gauss SAW: 3687 average daily users at 9.26 KPU - Total of 34359 kills (All BR 1-100)

On Average, the Orion scores 10768 more kills a day then the next highest option. The Orion is free, and while the other factions do have competing options with superior performance, they are not free. In a game that people have been calling infantryside, giving everyone a weapon of a single faction perfectly tailored for the majority of infantry encounters for free, on the most played class... This is the problem. This is why people hate it. Everyone has it. It is everywhere, and as long as you are fighting the VS, you cannot escape it. ... Ok, that's a bit dramatic, but it's also true - every major infantry encounter with the VS will have dozens of close-quarter Orion toting bruisers.

Well, that went on a bit longer then I intended. When I started, I stated that I had suggestions, not just analysis. As a disclaimer, this would impact the balance of ALL small arms, due to the numbers of players involved. The NC have the best overall SMGs, and with my suggestions, the VS would probably loose the top HA performance spot, so any major changes may require a complete small-arms overhaul for all factions, which is a MAJOR project... and probably why the LMG changes were delayed in the first place.

Anyway, as a initial start to the effort: Starter LMG changes...

First:
Remove the Orion. No, seriously - this is the first step. Replace it with a starting weapon more in line with the CARV / Gauss saw. The Starting guns are intended to show what the faction is all about, so the standard VS things apply - slightly slower round velocity in exchange for no-drop (even though this sucks prior to 100 meters, which is where the vast majority of infantry encounters exist.) I like the idea of granting it lesser rounds-per-reload then the CARV / Gauss saw in exchange for a faster reload, along with the typical Vanu recoil patterns. (I'm not sure how this would turn out balance-wise, but that's my first idea, just shooting from the hip. the main idea is to make the VS starter LMG more in line with the TR / NC's.)

Second:
Remove SMG's as an option for Heavy Assaults - the purpose of a Heavy assault is to provide heavy, punishing fire that can both suppress and raze enemy lines at mid to long range. The SMG does not accomplish this goal, therefore it doesn't really fit the goal of the class (in my perspective, at least)

Third:
Put the Orion back in as a purchasable option. See? There was no reason to panic. The only stipulation is that it has to have equal ADS speed compared to the competition. Rebalance the stats of the Orion to compare more closely to the MSW-R and Anchor, but with the typical Vanu-isms for recoil / projectile speed / nodrop shenanigans.

Fourth:
If necessary, rebalance the new Orion, MSW-R, and Anchor - Bring in the damage dropoff range of these guns slightly - these should be the close quarter weapons for HAs that make up for the loss of SMGs. I like the idea of making them effective at longer range then SMGs, but only by about ~30 meters, at most (For a max effective range of ~50 or so, with damage dropoff starting around 35-40 without a suppressor.) Again, these are just basic shooting-from-hip numbers ... but the idea is to make these a hybrid SMG / LMG, which they sort of already are, in terms of CQB performance + effective range / magazine size.


Potentially fifth: Now that every faction has fairly homogenized LMGs, perhaps experiment with Empire Specific attachments. (These are just my crazy ideas, but I figured i'd share.)

ES Ammo type ideas:

Vanu:
Plasma-enveloped rounds - Each discharge takes two ammo, and fire rate is slowed, but rounds gain minor splash similar to the Lasher. Explosive radius would be extremely small, say ~.1-.15 meters at most. The damage tier is raised by 1, and reload time is doubled. (This would be effective versus maxes, and spraying for cloaked infiltrators, possibly extra damage versus light armor.)

Terran Republic:
Dakka-nite rounds - (Ever wonder what they process at TR alloys?) Each round fired splits into two 124 damage projectiles that rotate in a diverging helix, loosing cohesion after traveling ~30 meters (The extra round falls away, but the initial round stabilizes in flight, and continues on uninterrupted. Magazine size is cut by half, and reload time increases.

New Conglomerate:
EM-Overcharge rounds - Rounds retain an electromagnetic charge after being fired, doing extra damage versus shields if impact is encountered within 50 meters of initial firing point in a small area. The added charge requires that rounds be spaced slightly further apart in a magazine, reducing the overall shots per reload. (-20% or so) - The added force increases vertical recoil by a very small amount. (Perhaps slightly less then HV rounds) - Additionally, rounds gain a flat ~15-25 m/s velocity.


Just a few thoughts. Feedback / further ideas are very welcome, but let's try to avoid complaints about current balance in favor of ideas on how to fix these complaints in an equitable manner.

If your problem statement was "the Orion is too good to be a starter weapon," a statement which I am just going to let stand as-is and not pick apart further, wouldn't just swapping it with another of the VS LMGs have been enough to satisfy?

Orion needs to be nerfed. Not necessarily in power, more in ease of use and versatility. 4 out of 5 times the Orion is perfect for whatever you're trying to do. It needs a focus so it can still shine in one area and not be the go-to for most other areas.

And please remove .75 ADS from all LMGs. No reason for a class with an overshield to be able to remain that nimble. While aiming.

from the post that was quoted in the OP.

NC is gonna be hit the hardest?!? are you effing kidding me. have you never heard of the anchor?!?

I believe this is in reference to the NC having the best SMG's by far, the A4-Cyclone compares to the next few highest-performing competitors by close to the same degree that the Orion compares to the CARV / Gauss saw. The A4-Cyclone is a .75 ADS weapon, so some NC Heavy Assaults have been using it in place of a LMG in close quarters encounters.

The Orion, MSW-R, and Anchor are in direct competition with one another, they are all the Close Quarters LMG options, so you can directly compare the two. Between these three the Anchor is the top performer, the MSW-R is second, and the Orion is a distant third. Of the three, the Orion actually need buffs, but there are simply so many Orions out there that they make up for inferior performance with superior numbers. (See my data above for proof)

I am absolutely fine with .75 ADS being removed, provided that a rebalance is implemented to compensate, that's part of why the quote I included in my original post (and my post) Suggests removing SMG's from the HA's allowed weapons - there are .75 ADS options for everyone in there.

Personally, I think the Orion (and MSW-R / Anchor) 's niche should be extreme close quarters, which is a part of my rebalance suggestion. Without access to SMG's, the trio of guns above would be each faction's best CQB choice, but by requiring that the player purchase them prior to use, we avoid the complete battlefield saturation the Orion currently has. Again, the TR / NC competition to the Orion is actually better, there's just a fraction of them out there, so they have much less of an impact.

Potentially, although I haven't done a stat-by-stat evaluation of each. At a glance, and with a very minimal buff-oriented tweak... the Flare might be a good choice. Mainly, i'm trying to avoid a weapon-already-owned scenario with a direct swap (If you already owned the flare, and suddenly it's free... but you have to re-purchase the Orion, that would be obnoxious to an extreme degree.)

Let's just start by giving the Butcher the 30RPM spinup it was supposed to get...

people use Anchor on the NC because its easier to use, even when the the SAW-S is arguably better.

people stuck on the orion are either newbs, or people that cant be ***** to work on unlocking the Bg.

I agree on everything you said except your proposed changes,why do you want to turn the orion into a semi-lasher style??the weapon is already fine.the only simple solution is

1.replace orion and make the LSW as a starter weapon

2.make polaris the new HA survey reward

3.make the orion 1000 certs instead of ursa and make the ursa with 325 certs

this will make people play more with the unused VS LMGs

The semi-lasher style thing was a random idea section, for if empire specific attachments are ever added to further differentiate ES gear - i'm not suggesting implementing them that way permanently, but just as a fun idea for a special-purpose attachment option.

Other than the fact that unless they TOOK AWAY the orion from everyone, it wouldn't solve anything.

How about just making MSW-R and Anchor more affordable instead of holding them ransom for big (for low tier players) cert investments or cash-money.

Make them 100-250 cert weapons and their usage would EXPLODE.

Then we can see if, when more than twice the unique users have those LMGs, the stat distribution stays about the same (in which case it might end up meaning the Orion needs a damn buff lmao)

That seems like the easiest and fairest way to shift the distribution of CQB power LMG's.

Oh, and I wouldn't concern over HA SMG's... the only one I'd ever consider taking over the CQB LMG's is the Cyclone, and while it's a nice NC perk, it's hardly game-breaking (and only makes me roll my eyes when they complain about the Orion)

.

And what of the Betel, GodSaw and Butcher? Seems to me like a bigger problem on live server atm than the orion.
This problem isnt as easy to solve as you think it A is.

I never said it would be easy, but I did say this.

My post was tailored to address one specific problem, and propose a solution. My above suggestions are a starting point, and are by no means designed to be a full solution, if a full solution is needed. Personally, I am of the opinion that the Orion is fine, and even underpowered compared to the MSW-R / Anchor, there are just enough of them out there that it makes up for it.

As for your particular comments regarding the Betel / GodSaw / Butcher, I see two options for the Betelgeuse.

Firstly, I believe that the heat mechanic on the Betelgeuse is the main thing making it OP. To be able to resume firing at any point in the cooldown period, cooldown when doing other things (Firing pistol / rocket launcher / using medkits, etc) - This is what makes it OP, it bypasses the need to reload completely, provided you have even slight trigger discipline. It's a CQB oriented LMG with infinite ammo, and no reload-oriented limitations save for the need to not glue down your trigger.

Option 1: Rebalance the heat mechanic, or replace it with something not quite as combat-breaking. As I mentioned in another thread, something that's a good benefit, but doesn't determine the outcome of combat every other firefight. Even a slight shield restore on scoring a hit would be nice, and not game breaking... the extra shield boost is nice, but won't save your bacon in most circumstances. Take it a step further, and allow impacts to start the recharge cycle of your shields, and it's even nicer.

Option 2: Adapt the Betelgeuse to the style of the new VS Starter LMG, complete with heat mechanic balance/ removal and replacement. Stopping the cooldown cycle when you don't have the weapon active would be a good starting point, if the heat mechanic is here to stay. Either that, or simply don't cooldown - force a reload when heat reaches maximum. Infinite ammo still exists, but you can no longer resume firing partially through a cooldown cycle.


As for the GodSaw / Butcher, something similar may be called for in terms of rebalancing them. If the Betelgeuse remains an orion style gun (CQB), perhaps re-do the TR / NC Directive LMGs in the style of the MSW-R / Anchor, respectively, to give them more competitive options. The models / animations can even remain the same, and adjusting the stats themselves shouldn't be an issue.
TR / NC mechanic ideas:
NC: Scoring direct hits grants damage resistance to all small arms / explosives, around 3-5% seems fair. Allow this to stack to
10%. Greater survivability should be on par with the shield restoration idea I had for the VS, if such a route is taken.

TR: Fire rate is increased by ~10RPM for every hit (Up to a maximum of 100) without increasing recoil. RPM boost is retained until weapon is reloaded, and a maximum of 50 RPM is retained for the next magazine.

Just a few thoughts, the mechanics are my first ideas, and don't seem too difficult to implement, as the all of the mechanics exist already in one form or another. (Although potentially not the defense bonus for the NC, depending on how they implemented suit slot defensive bonuses, not sure if defense stats can be adjusted without respawning / swapping loadouts)

BR100s use betelgeuse a lot AFAIK.

http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=br100kpu&weapon1=7254&weapon2=1894&weapon3=7236

I think I would do something a little more dramatic than the OP suggested (though ES Ammo types? That's a cool idea actually).

We have alot of redundant weapons. ALOT. Also everything suggested is for infantry weapons Only:

1. Remove redundancy. Two weapons per class of weapon would remain. Refund those who paid in certs with certs (current value). Refund those who paid in DBC half in coin (half current value or half value of time of purchase, whichever is higher) half in certs (half current value).

2. Those who purchased a weapon in a certain class keeps the new weapon.

3. There will be two weapons per class, including SMGs, LMGs, and so on. Shotguns will be subclassed to semi, pump, and auto, so they will remain unchanged. Pretty much if there is only two weapons in a class, that class is unaffected.

4. Default weapons across the empires will be very similar to each other. When I say similar, I mean in TTK, range, and role. Damage, accuracy, recoil, and so on will stay true to faction traits. They will handle similarly as each other, but not enough to be homogenized.

5. Purchased weapon will see the faction's trait become more apparent.

6. Range of weapon is dependent on type, not weapon itself. Shotguns and SMGs will be the CQC weapon. Carbines the Short-Medium weapon, Assault Rifle medium range, LMG medium to long, Scout, Battle, and Sniper rifles will be Long range. Accuracy, TTK, damage tier drop off will reflect the range (yes that means the Orion is no longer CQC).

7. Light Assault gets access to Assault Rifle (carbines will be slightly better at closer ranges than ARs, so no one get crazy) and Scout Rifle. Medics and Heavies get access to Carbines.

8. Directive weapons are obtained by mastering both weapons of the particular class (means each weapon class gets a weapon). Still takes 5800 kills (2x 2900) however. No freebies here! Those that earned their weapons already keep them. You earned it.

9. Directive weapons will be clones of the second weapon with perks. Something like two rail slots (extended mag and foreward grip together, without the downsides). Or ES like the heat mechanic.

10. NESES (non-empire-specific-empire-specific) weapons are changed. Right now Scout Rifles, Battle Rifles, SASR, and BASR are all the same across empires. This would change. The second weapon in their classes would have more ES traits like other weapons above. Maybe even keeping similar mechanics as the TRAP, Railjack, and Phaseshift (obviously making them more viable to one another) for the second weapon.

11. Alpha Squad (the forgotten founders) will keep the second weapon they received for each weapon class AS gave (Carbine, Assault Rifle, LMG, BASR).

12. Finally.. NS weapons will have two of each class as well. They will be treated as a 4th faction with its own traits. No more will they combine traits or hybridize weapons from the three empires. Complete with their own directive weapons. More stuff for players to collect.

They do indeed, however...

(Data is up to 9-25-15)
Battleranks (1-100)

• Orion: 12.32

• MSW-R: 18.17

• Anchor: 24.11

Battleranks (76-100)

• Orion:16.29

• MSW-R: 21.63

• Anchor: 25.26

Battlerank 100

• Orion: 20.55

• MSW-R: 27.23

• Anchor: 28.28

The general stat distribution is similar.


(Data is up to 9-30-2015, as i'm just now doing this, and the above data is from the other day. I'm including other starter LMGs and Directive LMGs just to have it here as general info.)

All BR = BR1-100
Q4 = BR 76-100

The first row of each section includes all battleranks, the second includes BR 76-100 (inclusive) only, the third is BR100 only.

EDIT: Bah, it messed up my spacing. Kills are faction color, uniques are standard white, for readability.

Average: Kills Uniques
Orion VS54 All BRs 46650 3771
Orion VS54 Q4 6362.46 397.143
Orion VS54 BR 100 2832.75 143.536

Betelgeuse 54-A All BRs 27588 559
Betelgeuse 54-A Q4 22207.7 479.5
Betelgeuse 54-A BR 100 13684.7 314

NC6A GODSAW All BRs 8391 315
NC6A GODSAW Q4 7273.82 285.393
NC6A GODSAW BR 100 4602.71 185.679

NC6 Gauss SAW All BRs 33004 3555
NC6 Gauss SAW Q4 3545.86 281.857
NC6 Gauss SAW BR 100 1271.75 91.1071

T9 CARV All BRs 36685 3547
T9 CARV Q4 5284.75 334.393
T9 CARV BR 100 2539.18 129.357

T9A "Butcher" All BRs 6731 271
T9A "Butcher" Q4 5566.18 241.929
T9A "Butcher" BR 100 3383.75 153.286

http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/
As a fun fact, there a total of 22,729 LMG Uniques over the last 30 days. This includes all (PC) servers, all factions, all battleranks. The total average number of Betelgeuses in play is 559. This number is 2.459% of the total heavies. Approximately 1 in 40 HAs you'll meet will have one.

To break it down further,
The VS's 9 LMGs had a total of 7635 average users. (+1 due to SVA-GG)
The TR's 8 LMGs had a total of 7754 average users
The NC's 8 LMG's had a total of 7610 average users


Assuming 2 VS platoons (96 players), 1 in 4 of which is HA (24), 1.757 of them will have a Betelgeuse. Yes, it's overpowered, but the population that actually has it and uses it is quite small. Something needs to be done, but this one gun isn't affecting fights to any significant degree. (Excepting high BR / high skill Outfits - put 10 of these in one fight with a skilled commander, and that's another story, but this type of outfit isn't precisely common either.)

Mathematically speaking, half of that number using Reaper DMR, Gauss SAWs, and AC-X11's would be far more devastating (instagib to anyone who comes into view). Unfortunately this sort of coordination is unheard of. I can't even get my static squad to do this lol.

Course mathematically speaking the Light Assault is worse than a spitfire in group TTK scenarios too. But I don't think I want to take the discussion there.

Yep! I just thought i'd mention the scenario in case anyone pointed it out. High-coordination directive wielding outfit squads do exist, but they are not common. You'll occasionally run across a concentration of these, but definitely not on a regular basis.

I don't like Orion at All tend to prefer Polaris over it.
For me it is too uncontrollable with small magazine.

Both VS and NC have nice selection of long range LMGs which are on par with NS-15.
Sadly TR super long ranger TMG-50 or Rhino/Bull are inferior to NS-15.

I agree, actually - my personal favorite is the SVA-88, although the Polaris is fun too. I generally use the SVA-88, the Ursa, and the Polaris the most, in that general order.