I hate to be that guy, but...

Please do explain how becoming an AMS is an advantage for a battle bus.

I think MBTs should be buffed defensively much like a battle bus is. But the C4 fairies with the rest of infantry side would rage pretty hard.

1.) I was refuting the claim that a Battle Bus is fitted out to do one single thing:

2.) It is relevant because a vehicle that can do the role of a tank and of a spawn point in one loadout is worth more than those separately.

This is the point.

If becoming a battle bus is being an emergent playstyle for the Sunderer, then becoming an AMS is an emergent playstyle for the battle bus. It is a normal playstyle for an Sunderer, that much is true, but, while you can be an AMS too, that's the same as the battle bus having cake and eating it too.

I'd extend this to the Galaxy and Valkyrie as well, in as far as any kind of emergent playstyles you can build upon them that diverges from troop transport, while also being able be specialized as a troop transport.

NO!
Just buff MBTs/Lightnings.
People are only running these because the tank gameplay is almost nonexistant unless you are an HE prowler.

You suggest an ambiguous change and leave the idea hanging.

Edit: I should always include questions in posts. Whether or not tanks are weak, why does the Sunderer deserve this kind of AV capability at any range?

This is where I stopped reading....there should always be a way for an appropriately geared vehicles to have an effective engagement with another vehicle.

What you said above is like saying...that a stock Magrider should never be able to effectively defeat another more AV minded tank. Well...thta is just silly. An AP tank will never....ever lose to a sunder of ANY load out unless he is surprised/ambushed/taken from behind/ OR teamed up on.

The fact is...if your opinion is a tank should always win against all other ground vehicle no matter what simply means you aren't thinking objectively.

At the risk of being called a troll.. I say it again, with an add-on:

Let the Sunderer cost 500 nanites to pull

AND reduce the rear-armor of the battle bus....

OR: let AP shells do some real damage to Sunderers.. in that case, they can keep all the magic that the battle bus has,
but when an MBT specializes (and that is what it means), to carry AP.. then those Armor Piercing rounds should do considerable damage to a battle bus.

you go through the trouble and cost to fit out a battle bus with double Fury.. I go through the cost of fitting out an MBT with AP , that should then be the counter to such an armored battle bus.. let AP rounds do more damage to Sunderers.. that would be a good start.

They do.....you have this idea that AP rounds don't hurt Battle busses...but they do. Me and my friend run a AP mag....FPC and Saron...we drop a full health battle bus to dead in 2 to 3 reloads each depending on if he missed with a saron round or not. Which is typically how long it takes for the battle bus to get into range. The only time the bus is actually a threat is when I you don't see it coming. Which goes for EVERY vehicle.

Can we please stop this pointless NERF train? IF this continues PS2 is going to end up a giant game of flag football. Instead of a sci-fi setting war game. If you can't take dying and losing your vehicle that takes 9 minutes of game time to replace (after you pulled it) Then you should prolly consider playing a less multiplier game. Everyone has a right to fight you and kill you here...that happens. How would you have survived in PS1 when anyone who loaded AP rounds into their assault rifle could damage your tank!?

As a prowler Guy, It hurts to watch oblivous Pilots get wrecked, But most of this video, Is showing a "battle bus" picking targets that are already engaged versus the real problem, Rocket Primaries(But thats a diff story).

As an owner of a Battle Gal, Battle Sundy, Vulcan Harraser, Certed Mossie, Certed Tank. etc.

Videos dont prove OP, Editing and placement are key things that make it so ppl look invincible.

The Battle bus is a good support AT, but any competent Tanker, Even a lightning, Would notice you coming, GJ VS guys attacking pre-occupied, DEPLOYed Prowlers Upclose. Closing the gap, and making sure they cant run. But the Battle bus is not OP. Your not being "that guy" but It aggrivates me when someone posts a highlight reel as DEFINITIVE PROOF that something needs to be nerfed to the ground. I want to see CPT. Fury try that manuever with my Vulcan/AP prowler, He wont make it.

The video shows, that the Dual Fury/Dual Bulldog Sundy is good for Ambushing Tanks(Prowlers[deployed...]...), But if you try charging a tank head on, your going to give the tank a ton of XP.

TL;DR :
The video only shows Ambushing tanks engaged in the dreaded Tank VS Heavy combat. The Battle Sundy Vs Tank Headon is not optimable, No problem should be seen. Dont nerf the sundy.

The sunderer needs to cost 300 nanites AT LEAST, no question about it. The sunderer has a higher top speed than the prowler (the fastest mbt), is tankier with blockade armor, and has not directional weakness. What most people are ignorant of is that most tank battles take place at close to medium range. The time it takes for a sunderer to traverse that distance is trivial and as someone pointed out, most battlefields aren't like the area between indar excavation and quartz ridge and its possible to make use of cover to close in. All a sunderer has to do is charge directly at you and get to your side or rear and you are completely dead and its not hard at all. Add a heavy with a decimator to jump out as he reloads his fury and land one in the back and you'll be crying tears.

This is the worst for prowlers because they don't have the ridiculous side armor or shield of vanguards and magriders can keep their front facing towards the sunderer and strafe. The extra dps of the prowler does not help against how tanky the sunderer is, much like how a vanguard in close quarters is curtains for most other MBTs if they can't run before they get there.

With that said, the only thing that I think needs to be done is to increase the cost to 300 or more because 200 nanites for a death machine is an atrocity.

Lets look at the match ups for a fury sunderer and an AP MBT

Against air, a fury sunderer can't do anything, but it has a MUCH higher chance of getting away with 3 engineers, no directional weakness, bonus resistance, and a top speed higher than MBTs. An MBT can POSSIBLY kill the air if the air is bad and there is an incline nearby, but will most likely die unless they are a vanguard and even then, you are probably stranded until the air gives up.

Against Infantry, a fury, blockade sunderer is an angel of death that can drive right into the thick of things and unless your driver is ********, you can probably avoid all c4 fairy attempts since he doesn't need to focus on anything else besides driving. AP MBTs can be effective against infantry, but they have to keep their distance because of directional weakness and c4 threat.

Against a harasser, I don't know how that match up goes, but I assume it would be a stalemate. It can go either way for an MBT with the MBT having an advantage.

Also, you can respawn back in a sunderer if you die repairing during a fight. For an MBT driver, that would probably mean your tank is gone.
HOW DOES THAT SOUND FOR 200 NANITES.

Honestly, though I don't mind the battlebus, but I think the 200 nanite cost vs a 450 for an MBT is crazy. I tank all the time and I just run away every time I see one because I know I won't win a close range fight, especially with the chance of things jumping out of it... like an av max or a gaggle of HAs. Even for non-battlebus use, 200 nanites is too cheap. I love my cert pinatas, but the number of sunderers is ridiculous.

I think the phrase you're looking for is "One of the most profitable cert/hour playstyles in the game." I've seen people running a bus doing 15k certs/week.

It's spelled "While holding still -> You can rep the Sundy, and because of Blockade's massive damage resistance you can outrepair an AP cannon."

But you already knew that.

You're right that the video isn't really an indictment of Battle Busses. But it's also a pretty piss-poor bus to begin with. As Alarox alluded to, a real Party Bus is a 6+ person affair. Driver, two gunners, at least one MAX, extra Engi and fill the extra seats with HA/MAX to flavor.

I've seen half a squad of mixed Lightnings and ESFs fail to take them down. You can't get close, and they've got enough AA and armor to withstand anything but a pair of Daltons. They don't have much range, to be sure, but there aren't many places in Auraxis that give MBTs the room to bombard a hard target like this from range, that doesn't also give the bus ample time to just turn and run. Sundies take teamwork, but they are second only to Libs on the vehicle food chain.

A call for a nerf based on developer intent is invalid if the thing be balanced outside of that intent.
There is nothing wrong with the battle bus.

If anything it highlights the prowlers inability to counter by the time it deploys etc etc. Where's the sunderer tries take on manned vanguard or mag video all i can see is they just took the previous base and moved up to the next one where no one can
a) read a map
b)set trap place mines etc.
c)actually use prowler deploy for its purpose, to be 500 meters on some hill somewhere(fun)
Is the fury good at it purpose withing about 30 meters yes but lets not forget it was nerfed/changed from A.I already. I am sure it's been said but fun is not always what you're having right at that moment, if things continues to be nerfed people always find it elsewhere or possibly leaving the game because of arbitrary rules that are pushed on them that they cant do anything about. When they were following the F***ing rules in the first place.

Think all you want, but the Fury was re-balanced to have AV DPS similar to a Halberd. And the Marauder, just like the other ESAI guns, had AV DPS similar to a Walker. If a friendly tank was in a fight you could help a bit, but no way you'd ever be able to solo other vehicles with them.

I can't remember if they took away the ESAI armor damage first or turned the Fury into an AV weapon first...may have been the same patch. Wasn't it during that huge, 3-post long game balance patch way back when or something? The one where they hid SC codes in it and all with things like counting the hairs on Higby's head? Actually, got it. It was back when patch notes were located in announcement rather than their own section, PU02:

You can check the full thread at:
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...cember-17-2013-9-30-am-pt-6-30-pm-cet.162621/

So is that enough proof that the devs in fact intend the Fury to be used to hit heavy armor?

Quoted for emphasis.

Seriously... Montages and Single-run highlight videos should not be used as proof of anything, only as visual examples for a much lengthier and more indepth discussion.

If you'd like... I can make a video of a AP/AP Mag wiping the floor of Sundy after Sundy. Battle sundies are only dangerous when you don't see them coming. AP/AP MBT vs a 3/12 dual-fury Sundy isn't much of a fight if one of them isn't caught off-guard. I've been on both sides of the fight with this one.

However, The true discussion is in the cost-to-performance ratio that is going on. The Sundy has a lot of advantages (AMS, Squad-Spawn, High hps, easy to repair, high damage mitigation, fast speed, good hill-climbing, dual-weapon system (flexibility), very very cheap cost, ability to be spawned at all terminals, ability to cart around 9 infantry + Maxes, ability to be driven places that it shouldn't be...)

The question is... does this good of a vehicle also need AV capabilities rivaling a MBT? Or should one of its disadvantages be slated as susceptible to AV ground vehicles?

It's not a question of being OP or not... its a question of... should it be able to be good at everything?

Personally, I'm on the fence about it. I've learned to live with them and keep an eye on driving styles... its pretty easy to tell the difference between a battle sundy and a tasty snack... so It really doesn't matter all that much for me.

Yes, I did know that.

And how exactly is a parked and deployed AMS sundy with engineers reping it a battle bus again?

Is it roaming the battlefield engaging tanks? If you're already under fire from a 1/2 tank, packing up and charging it with Furies won't work...and you'll no longer be an AMS again.

I think you're trying to be intentionally dense. The point he is making is that the Battle bus... after its done clearing the area, can deploy and still be useful. If more threats arrive, then it can pack up and deal with them again. Repeat as needed.

Those tanks that people complain about shelling bases needlessly and not pushing the point... yea... don't have that problem with a battle bus... you have the option of being a spawn. That's a huge advantage. Neither driver wants to ditch his resources... but at least the sundy driver can continue to be useful, whereas the 450 resource MBT is just sitting around trying to snipe infantry ineffectively.

As for the Engineer repairing feature.... the high mitigation of the blockade armor allows the crew to roll up on a target, have both gunners still slamming the target, while the driver (and any additional engies available) hop out to repair bus while fighting (using the bulk of the bus as cover)... the good crews use this to their advantage all the time and it can swing many battles.

Why did you even let that bus get close to you? If you had your tank in a nice position you could blow that Sunderer to bits or maybe deter it away before it could even get into effective range. Maybe get a gunner as well. You had a bad position and no gunner? Too bad for you then. Stop complaining and adapt.

Do you even know how hard it is to aim with the Fury/ Bulldog? At point blank range it is no problem but since they are essentially mortar/ grenade launchers, their trajectory is hard to get right at long ranges, and you usually need a couple of practice shots to estimate the range, if you are a good gunner. That is something not really needed by any tank cannon in the game.

Well, it could, if it had a TOW missile launcher, or at least a mounted rocket launcher. Which is something that Sunderer does not even possess.