[Suggestion] How to make Engineers more versatile (and better)

Discussion in 'Engineer' started by Natir, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. Natir

    For this thread, I will be focusing on the repair tool, ammo pack, turret and portable shield.

    Repair Tool

    For 740 Certs, you can repair things quicker.. Come on, really? That is the best it can do? What you are doing is being a better help to your team by repairing quicker but in the end, you hurt yourself. That quicker repair speed means you will be earning less overall certs since you repair things... quicker...

    Now, what could make it a bit better? It repairs shields! Yes, make it repair the shields of your friendly players. This to me seems like it would give the engineer a lot to do on the battlefield. Why would I bother shooting my gun if I can just keep repairing stuff and restoring their shields. It would give me a lot more to do in terms of support.

    Ammo Pack

    This one really gets me. For 810 certs, your ammo pack will last for 6 minutes and the radius it resupplies is increased by 7 meters. For 810 certs, that seems like you don't really get much of a return. Not to mention a majority of the time, you pry have something else in your main ammo slot. The one you can throw down via the turret is only a level 3.

    My idea would be that the max rank of this resupplies your allies with their grenades. They must have already purchased them via resources to be able to resupply. This would very nice in situations where you have medics with heal/revive grenades or concussion grenades.

    Mana Turret

    The default turret is okay but what you pay for in certs it definitely not worth it. Instead, you should have your default turret and what you cert into should give you different options. One area of certs could be for a turret that is good against armor and another that shreds infantry. I seldom use this turret and I can typically just outrun someone in a turret and kill them so.. yeah... Have there be at least 2 different options to the default turret. I would also like to see some developer data on how many people actually cert into this thing for the reduced heat...

    Portable Shield

    This would be in your ability slot and would absorb X amount of damage. What you cert into is for it to absorb more damage and maybe at max rank you can deploy two of them. You have a shield on your turret so why not allow a shield you can put down to help protect allies. This would be amazing on CQC.

    Thoughts on these things?
  2. Narutobieber

    We are capable of repairing vehicles, maxes, have good anti-infantry guns, lay down ammo, and can blow up any vehicle with tank mines...

    so we have 4 ways of getting exp (repairing, resupplying, anti infantry, anti vehicle)


    Stop QQing and get good.
  3. TokyoShoe

    I agree with everything you said for the most part. EXCEPT for the grenades bit. The last thing this game needs is more grenade spam.
  4. Adamar09

    Engineer is already versatile (and good - arguably the best anti-vehicle in the game) enough. The only thing we can't do is hurt air, and we can assist the next best thing to do that.

    Obviously high level upgrades are expensive. All tiered upgrades in this game is exponential, news at 11. Get the cheaper ones first, then specialise. Nanoweave final level is 1000C for 5%, compared to the first level which is 1C for 10%. Does that final 5% actually make a difference for anyone other than INF? (who only gets use out of it with that one.)

    The only thing that seems lacklustre is the turret, but if you call it a portable shield/stepladder it doesn't seem so bad.
  5. Natir

    I love using it as a stepladder to get into the trees easier in a bio lab.
  6. Neurotoxin

    Troll username, troll comment?

    HA is the most versatile class anyway, a single HA can be effective against all ranges of combatant, and can attack all forms of enemy vehicles. LMGs also seem to tear up ESF without composite armor maxed out. Just wait til anti-vehicular rounds are put in. Engineers still don't have AA MANA turrets, and are restricted to ground-based targets. Without the NMG, Engineers are way more vulnerable, and that turret shield does nothing because any HA rocket to hit the turret kills the user instantly.

    This is a good post. Engineers are a class that cold use more diversity. Different repair tools could be implemented, instead of cooldown reduction there can be different variations (faster rate of repair for quick, short bursts; plain tool that can help recharge shields up to 50% or so) that can be certed into and equipped one at a time.

    Ammo packs need love, but for me it is more the placement that needs help. I'm glad that Engineers aren't forced to pick Repair Tool OR Ammo Pack, and that the player has the choice of using Ammo Packs instead of a different deployable / consumable. I'm also glad that turret / ammo pack placement isn't on a class cooldown timer, and that they can be placed over and over without limitation. That being said, maxing out Ammo Pack skill should let a player drop 5 or 6 packs, so they can sacrifice killing power or survivability to be purely supply-oriented. I'd like to see placement change though, where left-click tosses the pack (so it can slide, and be tossed while moving) and right-click places it in an anchored position. Such a change would also alleviate the problem of ammo packs disappearing if someone walks over the deploy spot before it is fully materialized.

    MANA turrets needs love. The shield is too small and too vulnerable. If friendly infantry can freely pass through the shield, a bigger shield would be no problem. The shield needs to actually stop shots, including protecting the sides better, so using a turret doesn't just make the player sniper bait from basically all angles. Shots that hit the turret need to be absorbed by the turret, and HA rockets and other weapons shouldn't kill the user instantly when the turret or shield is what gets hit (shouldn't harm the user hardly at all). Upgrading the basic MANA turret should increase projectile velocity, to give the weapon better range and coverage. Finally, we do need the AV and AA variants of the Engineer turret. Something that fires small low-splash rockets at a slow rate would be good for MANA AV turrets, so they aren't spammy and aren't better than the basic turret for infantry. Likewise, the MANA AA needs to fire flak, and have a high position with a massive body-covering shield, but restrictions like the G30 Walker for how far down it can aim. Variations later on would be great, factional AV turrets (VS would be a light rail beam) as well as additional infantry turrets like a 10-meter flamethrower for superior indoor suppression.

    A deployable shield would be great as an alternative to a turret. The shield generator should also be repairable, so engineers can sustain shields that are up, though there would likely need to be restrictions on placement proximity so there can't be 2 shields in one single doorway. The Protective Shield should stop small arms fire in both directions as well as AV rounds, and improving it gives better damage resistance (equating to more health but the same repair speed) or more health and the same damage resistance. Variations that can also be used should include the Opaque Shield (can't see through the shield unless you are right next to it), Blocking Shield (only friendly infantry may pass freely through it, but it is less durable), and Phase Shield (bullets can pass through the concave side but not the convex side, takes only a few hits before the shield drops, fragile compared to the other shields).
    • Up x 1
  7. Bill Hicks

    engineer is the the most versatile class. but I see what you mean. every class, even engineers can use some more mechanics. That shield idea is pretty good, but I would give that to medics or maybe heavies. I really wish there were more mana turret options.
  8. Mazzar

    ^ As above said, Engineer is already #1 versatile class.

    Turrets, ammo packs, tank mines/explosives, guns that can hipfire and/or long range, repair maxes, repair vehicles, repair generators, repair consoles, block warp gate spawn with turrets...
  9. DaveyCrockett

    Not a fan of shield repair, as an alternative how about the ability to reinforce items being repaired, increasing the vehicle's or max's health pool with each cert level purchased.

    Ammo, not sure what to do with this, I'm sure what's in the game won't stick around so I'll just see what the dev's do.

    Turret, definitely needs more options

    Shield, love this idea
  10. Cyridius

    Ammo Pack is pretty useless in general as long as you can turn the turret into an ammo pack and have both the ammo and turret deployed concurrently. At the same time, I don't like the suggestion that we simply allow it to resupply grenades - yes I know the player would have to have bought them. Grenades are spammed enough already.

    I also have maxed out Engi tool, and while I notice the significant difference in performance, I feel like I cheated myself out of XP sometimes. XP gained should be done on amount repaired, not per tick. At the same time though, I feel much more useful and I CAN get more XP out of it in alot of situations. Say a MAX is in combat, taking heavy fire, I stand there out of sight or behind him and repair. He stays up for waaaaaay longer and as a result I'm repairing him for longer and I get more XP, he gets more kills, and the battles goes better for all. That's just my 2c on it.

    Right, so let me start off with how the Engineer Turret can be useful right now;

    It can be used as a shield, not even occupying it, you can hide behind it as a piece of cover(And repair it for XP)
    You can use it as it's actually intended, it makes you very vulnerable to snipers and the like, but it can be used to somewhat hold down an area(Until more than 1 person comes at the same time)
    It can be used as a distraction - just place the shield at a door and someone will probably think it's occupied, they might even shoot, alerting you to their presence - or it could even block the door forcing an awkward entry or forcing them to go around.
    The ammo box.

    Okay, so first thing's first. I think the Turret should become a Utility Tool and that the slot it takes up right now should be come a utility slot. Right now, the turret is extremely lackluster, and things like C4 and Mines, or even the ACTUAL ammo box could take it's slot. It would also give the Engi more variety to his tools - right now he's ALWAYS got an ammo box in the form of a turret, which I don't agree with(You can the ammo box and the turret deployed at the same time btw) - not to mention the ammo box for the turret is better than the rank 1 ammo box.

    After you make it a Utility Tool, revamp the certs entirely. Right now we could put 100s of certs into this for what? An extra 0.5sec per upgrade on the time it takes for the turret to overheat. It's not good enough, and to add it's really, really boring. Right now the Turret is kind of useless in TRUE function. The ideal changes I'd like would be this;

    Rank 1; Increase damage
    Rank 2; Increase time it takes to overheat
    Rank 3; Give more health
    Rank 4; Add a face shield to stop your head being so easily blown off by a sniper
    Rank 5; Allow you to cert into an anti-vehicle(AA/AT) upgrade(A WEAK one)

    Now these are just general ideas - It doesn't neccessarily have to be these ones and it doesn't neccessarily have to be in that particular order. I just think that - while the Engi is a good class now in its current state - the class needs to actually have a solid, common use for the Turret other than as a step ladder. The overall strength gain this would get is balanced out by making it a Utility tool, so Engis will actually be forced to think about what they want - the Turret or something else. We could even have more variety in the future by having that deployable shield again, etc. All I know is that right now the Turret isn't really that useful, and alot of the better players, and myself, will say that the Turret TRULY does nothing more than make you a target and damage soak. It's not the WORST function in the world, but it's a gripe I seriously have.

    If you're going to disregard all my suggestions, so be it, but right now if anything the certifications TRULY need a revamp - they're EXTREMELY lack luster and are for people with more certs than sense.
  11. Cirevam

    Since when does a higher level repair tool repair have a higher repair rate? I thought it just increases the amount of time you can repair before you have to let the thing cool down. To be fair it does repair faster with more ranks since you don't have to wait for it to cool down as much, but I think you know what I mean.

    I agree with most of the other points. Engi is already super-versatile (they always have something to do) but the turret needs help and a few other things could be improved. The repair tool's range is abysmal and it doesn't lock-on like the medic's heal tool, for instance. I also hate that deploy mechanic for ammo packs. It's tolerable since I tend to not place them when being shot but sometimes I have to place it twice because the game didn't want to place it the first time. So I drop the pack and it's still in my hands...
  12. Adamar09

    Since always - that's exactly how it works. The time to overheat is the same regardless of level. Highest level allows you to repair a turret in 2 cycles, which is about 30 seconds IIRC. At the lowest level it's 4? Very well spent certs, in my opinion. Especially when things are getting shot while you're repairing them and actually going up, rather than exploding.
    • Up x 1
  13. Cirevam

    Thanks for clarifying. It looks like I need to cert more into repair tool now.

    Edit: after reading the below post I think I'll leave my tool at level 3 for now but to be on the safe side I'll see if I can compare mine to a tool at a different level. Or maybe there's a video showing the differences.
  14. serenekaos

    Correct me
    I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Certing into the repair tool only increases time to overheat. Which means you repair the same amount over a longer period of time. So, you will in the long run repair more and you will do it faster because of less overheating, but the amount you repair is the same.

    The reason you do NOT repair more per tick is because that's what would break engineer and you would start seeing invulnerable tanks/sunderer that can't be killed unless the engi dies first.
  15. Cyridius

    No, the repair tool increases repair speed by 5% per rank.
  16. Underbalance

    I agree with the post. Lots of certs but nothing really that beneficial.
  17. Natir

    No. At rank one you repair less overtime which is why you get more exp ticks. At the highest rank you repair things quicker and thus getting less overall exp per tick. You get exp based on the time repaired, not the amount repaired.
  18. serenekaos

    I stand corrected. It must have been the ultra-informative certification descriptions that threw me off.....:rolleyes:

    I think engineers are just fine as they are. They have a lot of toys that go boom plus the turret. Oh, and they can repair.
  19. Commissar Gaunt

    Can we fix the grenade launcher first?

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