Thought I'd post this here since it's a little easier to examine LMGs right now than Carbines/ARs due to data still being updated on the new ones. I first noticed there was a "hidden" stat that never appeared on any spreadsheets thanks to the Das Anfall stat site, which pulls from the same API data that was available up until May (and has just become available again; DA is working on that now). What I thought was interesting was that this stat, called "horizontal tolerance" in the files, had never really been looked at or described by anybody. It appears right next to "horizontal minimum" and "horizontal maximum," which are the horizontal recoil stats most folks reference whenever they're talking about weapon recoil. Horizontal recoil is of course that uncontrollable side-to-side rattle (not to be confused with the vertical recoil angle, which is a different can of worms; I'll be ignoring that for this discussion). I asked 50SHADESOFPURPLE, who runs the DA stat site, what the stat actually was; he wasn't sure, but his theory is that it's some kind of maximum. In other words, the horizontal tolerance stat appears to determine how far horizontal recoil can go before it starts kicking back the other way. Mind that this is just our speculation based on the data; neither of us is sure what this does. But, to try to get an idea, I decided to go ahead and rank all the LMGs in order of horizontal tolerance, from best to worst. From comparing multiple weapon types it appears lower is better, which is why 50 suggested it was a maximum. Anyway, the list: LA1 Anchor: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.4 GD-22S: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.4 Ursa: 0.1875-0.1875 @ 0.5 T32 Bull: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.5 NC6 Gauss SAW: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.525 MSW-R: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.55 NC6S Gauss SAW S: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.6 NS-15M: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.6 EM6: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.7 TMG-50: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.7 EM1: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.7 T16 Rhino: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.7 VX29 Polaris: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.7 Flare VE6: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.75 Pulsar LSW: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.8 T9 CARV-S: 0.2-0.225 @ 0.8 SVA-88: 0.2-0.225 @ 0.9 Orion VS54: 0.2-0.225 @ 0.9 T9 CARV: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.9 Some thoughts from this: Surprisingly, the Anchor and GD-22S have the lowest tolerance of any LMG. They actually have it lower than most Assault Rifles! They do, however, have variable-angle vertical recoil, which mucks up their aim a bit, but with a Grip they're surprisingly good at what they do. The MSW-R is similar; it does have variable-angle vertical recoil, but it has almost half the tolerance value of the CARV. Might explain why it's seemingly much more accurate despite identical horizontal recoil stats. The EM1, Polaris, and Rhino basically are clones of each other. They of course have minor differences in attachments and vertical recoil, but their horizontal recoil and tolerance are basically the same by default. The SAW S, TMG-50, and Flare are not actually as close to each other as initial stats would make it seem. The SAW S has less horizontal recoil than the Flare and the same as the TMG and also a lower tolerance value than either. The Flare has both the worst horizontal recoil and the worst tolerance. Speaking of the Flare, ever wondered why it's so much more jittery than the Ursa despite the Ursa only having slightly lower horizontal recoil? Because it is; it has a tolerance of 0.75 to the Ursa's 0.5. The Ursa is one of the best LMGs for tolerance and the Flare is one of the worst. Similarly, the Bull and Rhino look a lot alike, but the Bull is just better almost everywhere it counts. It's already known it has a better hipfire COF and better moving ADS COF, but now we can also plainly see that the Bull has a better recoil tolerance than the Rhino despite equal horizontal recoil values. In fact, the Bull even has better tolerance than the NS-15M! VS only has one LMG better than 0.7 tolerance (the Ursa). NC doesn't have any worse than 0.7. VS actually has weird issues with high tolerance in general. The Pulsar is actually worse than the Cycler for this. Although it's not all bad: the Pulsar C has lower tolerance than the insanely accurate Solstice/TRAC-5 Burst variants, and lower horizontal recoil than most other carbines too! The Orion and CARV have the worst horizontal tolerance of any LMG, but the SAW has one of the best. However bear in mind the SAW has one of the worst moving ADS COFs, so its accuracy is going to be rough if you're strafing, but only because of COF rather than recoil. I'm not sure what, exactly, Forward Grips reduce. The stats that seem most influential on inaccuracy are going to be baseline COF (not affected by Grips), bloom (not affected by Grips), first shot recoil multiplier (not affected by Grips, but affected by Compensators), vertical recoil angle deviation (do Grips/Compensators affect this?), baseline horizontal recoil (probably affected by Grips), and horizontal recoil tolerance (do Grips affect this?).
Interesting find but as of right now all we have is speculation. I am a facts guy myself, until we get a solid confirmation on what this stat does it is fairy dust as far as I am concerned. I am not saying your theory on it is wrong of course, it seems to make sense (I have never used the flare or ursa so I will take your word on it) and if this is a legitimate thing I will be sure to add it to my accuracy equations in the future. Food for thought, I personally find that the GD-22 is rather jittery in its horizontal fire in comparison to the EM6, Gauss Saw or EM1 which seem to travel almost entirely vertical, but according to this is should have much more accuracy than any of those options because the recoil would balance faster. This might be entirely due to the rest of its stats however, where its angle climb causes problem.
"I have gotten Higby's message about the updated weapon data" - 50Shades, "API data" - Nakar, what is this Higby's API data you're talking about? I'm also interested in creating a stats sheet, and if there's a simpler way than digging through tons of datamined .txt files, I'm very interested.
Higby actually sent some additional data to 50Shades during the time when gun data was not in the API in order to help the site track new weapons better. As I understand it, the data is back now and is being reorganized, so we may end up getting a new stat sheet finally. However some of the data was either not sent or incomplete; I'm fairly sure the Cougar/Zenith/Terminus have some horizontal recoil for example but they're listed on the DA site as 0-0 @ 0.
What? API as in the same API that gives access to player stats through web query? Because the spreadsheet and - as far as I know - stats.DA are created using .txt files that were extracted from game client's files.
It appears that the intent was to give certain VS weapons superior ADS COFs while moving but worse horizontal recoil tolerance than equivalent TR guns with higher recoil min/max and worse ADS COFs. This is still the case for carbines and ARs (how beneficial it is, that's your call), but during the 75% ADS nerf patch they also gave all VS LMGs at least 0.4 moving ADS COF, where before they had a number of 0.35 options. Now, as it so happens, the only LMGs that have that superior moving ADS COF are NC and TR (the Bull, the MSW-R, the GD-22S, and the Anchor). Well, also the NS-15M obviously.
An excellent post. I'm going to support Nakar's hypothesis here with some personal experience with my own use of a GD-22S with a laser and SAW S with exmags, and how uncannily accurate they seemed despite having relatively bad recoil characteristics without the grip. 36 million exp as an NC soldier and I'm totally ruined on LMGs now. I can't even use the Orion without saying, "hey, why am I using this crappy assault rifle?" and pining for my full auto sniper that is the SAW
Here's the full list of regular automatics: ASSAULT RIFLES Terminus VX9: 0-0 @ 0 (may be an error) Gauss Rifle Burst: 0.14-0.14 @ 0.28 TORQ-9: 0.1-0.3 @ 0.3 (may be an error) NC-9 A-Tross: 0.1-0.3 @ 0.3 (may be an error) SABR-13: 0.15-0.175 @ 0.35 Gauss Rifle S: 0.175-0.2 @ 0.35 Equinox VE2 Burst: 0.16-0.16 @ 0.4 T1B Cycler: 0.17-0.17 @ 0.4 NC1 Gauss Rifle: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.4 Reaper DMR: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.4 Corvus VA55: 0.15-0.15 @ 0.5 CME: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.5 T1 Cycler: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.5 T1S Cycler: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.5 NS-11A: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.6 Pulsar VS1: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.7 Equinox VE2: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.7 GR-22: 0.25-0.275 @ 0.7875 HV-45: 0.3-0.3 @ 0.8 Cycler TRV: 0.275-0.3 @ 0.825 Carnage AR: 0.275-0.3 @ 0.8625 TAR: 0.3-0.3 @ 1.0 CARBINES HC1 Cougar: 0-0 @ 0 (may be an error) Zenith VX-5: 0-0 @ 0 (may be an error) Gauss Compact Burst: 0.14-0.14 @ 0.28 Pulsar C: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.3 AF-4A Bandit: 0.1-0.3 @ 0.3 (may be an error) Solstice Burst: 0.16-0.16 @ 0.4 TRAC-5 Burst: 0.17-0.17 @ 0.4 AC-X11: 0.175-0.2 @ 0.4 AF-19 Mercenary: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.45 Razor GD-23: 0.1875-0.1875 @ 0.45 Gauss Compact S: 0.175-0.2 @ 0.45 T5 AMC: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.45 Solstice VE3: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.5 Solstice SF: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.5 TRAC-5: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.55 TRAC-5 S: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.55 NS-11C: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.6 GD-7F: 0.225-0.3 @ 0.625 VX6-7: 0.25-0.25 @ 0.7 LC3 Jaguar: 0.245-0.275 @ 0.735 Serpent VE92: 0.25-0.275 @ 0.75 LC2 Lynx: 0.25-0.275 @ 0.75 (may be an error) LIGHT MACHINE GUNS LA1 Anchor: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.4 GD-22S: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.4 Ursa: 0.1875-0.1875 @ 0.5 T32 Bull: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.5 NC6 Gauss SAW: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.525 MSW-R: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.55 NC6S Gauss SAW S: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.6 NS-15M: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.6 EM6: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.7 TMG-50: 0.175-0.175 @ 0.7 EM1: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.7 T16 Rhino: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.7 VX29 Polaris: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.7 Flare VE6: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.75 Pulsar LSW: 0.2-0.2 @ 0.8 T9 CARV-S: 0.2-0.225 @ 0.8 SVA-88: 0.2-0.225 @ 0.9 Orion VS54: 0.2-0.225 @ 0.9 T9 CARV: 0.225-0.225 @ 0.9 SUBMACHINEGUNS MKV Suppressed: NO DATA NS-7 PDW: 0.2485-0.2485 @ 0.6 AF-4 Cyclone: 0.2-0.3 @ 0.7 PDW-16 Hailstorm: 0.3-0.35 @ 0.8 Blitz GD-10: 0.3-0.3 @ 0.9 Eridani SX5: 0.3-0.4 @ 0.9 SMG-46 Armistice: 0.35-0.4 @ 0.9 Sirius SX12: 0.4-0.4 @ 0.9
Wow, awesome find Nakar! I own or have extensively tested just about every carbine and LMG for all factions, and looking at the lists I see myself nodding again and again at their placement. I think you're right about what it means; that it determines how far off-center a weapon is allowed to cumulatively wander from horizontal recoil over several shots before it's essentially "forced" to go back the other way. Combined w/ the horizontal recoil values we already knew, it certainly explains a lot, like: Why I think the Pulsar C and AC-X11 are two of the best long range automatics in the game and why I'd put the C up against any AR in a long range fight. Why the Ursa is as accurate as NC options despite the larger H.recoil (.1875) Why I found the Bull to be more accurate/consistent than the T16 despite identical stats in most other areas Why the Carv/SVA/Orion wander like a snake all over the place during sustained fire Why I despise VS LMGs in general for anything other than short range I could go on.. But you get the idea.
Oh, I didn't really bother to pull it since it's not a stat for which you can really compare anything, but Battle Rifles have a tolerance of 0.5 while semi-auto Scout Rifles have a tolerance of 0.3, in addition to lower recoil overall (but worse COF bloom). Recoil recovery on the Battle Rifles are also almost twice as good (8% after 0ms vs. 15% after 0ms). Also interesting to find that recoil recovery starts instantly on semi-auto guns, as opposed to taking 80-100ms on automatics! Another small feather in a Battle Rifle's cap vs. an LMG, I suppose.
That's an awesome find as well. Now, I wonder if the game treats semi-auto fire mode on automatic and burst weapons as a semi-auto weapon, and starts recoil recovery instantly. I have a strong hunch that it does. Pretty easy to test, just have to film 1 shot in auto mode and 1 shot in semi-auto, and then slow down the video and compare. Could do it right, but kinda tired. Definitely on my to-do list, though.
Thankfully recoil in general is something you have a lot more control over with semi-auto weapons since you are in control of the tempo of the weapon between each and every shot. Thus you can "tweak" your RoF to compensate for when the weapon's recoil starts to get away from you. I think recoil tolerance would have less impact on semi-autos because of this. That said, I do know if you fire too fast at a distant target w/ a Battle Rifle you can start to see the recoil point wander a bit, more than what just the horizontal recoil would account for. Especially if you use a laser instead of a foregrip. And yeah, IME semi-auto Scout Rifles experience this to a significantly lesser degree.. The 0ms Recoil Recovery Start Time is quite interesting. It would explain why folllowup shots on a Battle Rifle are still faster than on, say, the GD-22S when tap-firing, even though they both have a recoil recovery of 15.
Thanks for this info. Really explains why I love some guns based on my exeprience. People are always like "OMG ORION MASTER RACE" and I hate the thing but love the Pulsar LSW. Why I clearly picked the T32 Bull over the T16 Rhino. Why I likve the Pulsar C. To me recoil is a very important deciding factor. If it has too much horizontal and / or vertical I refuse to use it. I'll trade off many other stats just to have something inately accurate because if I can land more shots I can make up for a lot of inferior stats. I think you're spot on with your analysis.
