Flak does too much damage to ESFs

Flying an esf is too easy for AA to be balanced.

When esf's can't hover in midair, fly backwards, and have to actually do strafing runs in order to kill things on the ground, then we can nerf flak.

Actually we still wouldn't have to, as flying like that (ie not hovering) makes you less likely to die to flak on its own.

Flak should instantly vaporize any ESF equipped with pods to bring it in balance with those 1337 pod pilots

I've got two main issues with flak:

A. Flak doesn't punish G2A pilots nearly enough. They get in, hover, receive flak fire and then bug out, flying low enough that lock on and flak users constantly lose LOS.
B. Flak and lock-ons punish A2A pilots severely to the point that a single Skyguard or lock-on HA can deny them their role of airspace control.

The type of pilot that issue A concerns annoys all types of players. They pulled their ESF just so they can shoot players on the ground. For them, flak is just a nuisance. However, for the A2A pilots that are affected by issue B, flak is a death sentence. If you are engaging enemy pilots, getting the drop on them and such, remaining in a Phalanx or Skyguard's LOS means you either run (at which point the enemy ESF will turn and then easily pick off your remaining health), or try and tank the damage through (usually suicide).

As an infantry player, I can understand infantry's concerns with untouchable rocketpod ESFs mauling them on the ground. Flak doesn't do, for lack of a better term, **** against these types of pilots. But A2A pilots don't present a threat to ground targets. In effect, the role is reversed where vulnerable A2A ESFs are basically slightly-more-manouverable-than-sitting ducks for all types of weapons like bursters, Skyguards, AP cannons, small arms, lock-ons, etc.

In my experience, A2G pilots are much easier to kill with both flak and lockons than A2A pilots. The former fly lower, hover more, and generally fly in a more predictable manner. Generally the most I can do to an A2A pilot is ding them after they've already committed to a dogfight (usually when they stop and attempt hover-fighting), then either get an assist if the friendly pilot is good enough to finish them or force them to take a repair break if they're not.

A2G ESFs also often attempt to pod/nosegun my flak turret while hovering perfectly still, and well... trying to win a straight up DPS race with your hard counter is not smart.

Here's a solution. If you take any form of dedicated A2G weaponry (rocket pods, Hornets, etc) your speed and maneuverability goes down by 30% (on account of less aerodynamic design and increased weight). Additionally your maximum altitude (sky ceiling) is decreased as your engines cannot pull that much weight (say 350m). Lock-ons have a decreased lock time against G2A ESFs due to unstealthy geometries from mounted weapons. Finally these ESFs take extra damage from flak, as their exposed wing-mounted munitions have a tendency to combust under fire.

A2A units are unaffected by this, and can fly as high as they want and as fast as they want. Nose cannon damage though is reduced significantly against infantry and vehicles. Flak damage is reduced due to an optional flak-detonation defense. Naturally keeping above 350m-400m means that lock-ons simply cannot lock on.

Now aircraft flying at the 350m+ line are mostly going to be Galaxys, Liberators, and A2A ESFs. Aircraft flying below 350m are going to be G2A ESFs. If A2A ESFs want to have their silly honor duels in the sky, all they have to do is stay above 350m. And G2A ESFs are now rightfully vulnerable to the targets that they're trying to hit. This makes perfect sense, because ESFs were never meant to be good A2G units... that role belongs only to the crewed Liberator.

This change has the added benefit of making G2A ESFs extremely vulnerable to A2A ESFs, as it should be. As it stands G2A ESFs aren't vulnerable enough to A2A ESFs. That would be like a Skyguard having an "even" chance against an AP Lightning... if you are outfitted for a particular role then you should be vulnerable to your counters.

These changes would segregate the skies to improve the experience for A2A ESFs, infantry, and ground vehicles. I suppose you might view it as a nerf to A2G ESFs, but honestly they need one anyhow in light of the ridiculous damage they do to ground units without a significant threat of being killed in return.

If you really think that flying around in VR will recreate a renlistic scenario, then your are pretty damn primitive. It might be good to learn maneuvers etc. but not for learning how to fly.

Now on topic, I recently got into flying and I really think FLAK is ok where it stands right now. They are annoying as ****, make them cost ressources or maybe make them like the A2A lockons (you have to maintain the aim), but right now their just stupid.

I remember Burster-side quite well, but I never remembered being reduced to smoking after taking a maximum of 7 Flak rounds.

That's lag and other stuff - go to the VR, 7 Flak rounds doesn't do nearly enough damage to an ESF. I know what you mean, something you get killed by what feels like almost zero Flak, and boom you're dead.

I am a horrible pilot and yet I can maneuver away from AAs without taking any damage. Suck it up

Flak isn't strong enough, those lolpodders still get away 90% of the time.

You people escape death all the time. 75% of the time you cancel lock-ons with flares. If yu get hit you just fly away. You often enough manage to deal good damage anyway. -.- Get real man. Maybe turrets could get nerx. They are annoying as faq but its partially due the too short distance between bases.

I dont use flares and I get away too except when Im too eager to shoot so I hover too long. Or I crash into an antenna or mountain.

You will never get support to nerf AA to ESF. The farming that can take place if AA pressure is relaxed would drive to many players to quit the game just like it was at launch. Though it sucks to get insta poofed by a few sky guards you simply have to learn to pick and choose your fights and go farm where they are not prepared for you.

Im starting to feel like an expert on flak and the Skyguard now... too many of these threads around full of "feelings" and "I think" but little to no facts.

First off, a Skyguard needs 27 hits to put a stock ESF on fire and 32 hits to kill it.. independent of range.

Now people are probably thinking im stupid because they can clearly see that the Skyguard does 200 damage up to 100m and that it drops off to 150 damage at 300m. Sure, if you are shooting at infantry or tanks perhaps but we are talking about aircraft. The Skyguard fires flak wich explode near enemy aircraft so the Skyguard does a constant 60 indirect damage against aircraft no matter the range because the explosion happens in their face, the shot itself never connects.

Shooting at ESF at point blank range where the flak doesnt explode does less damage than when it explodes, with flak rounds that doesnt explode it takes 34/35 hits instead of 32 most likely because the indirect and direct damage are different damage types where the 200 direct damage still does less damage against ESFs than the 60 indirect damage.

A Skyguard shooting at a stationary ESF 300m away will miss shots because of the COF so even with perfect aim a Skyguard will only in extreme cases(instead of saying never) have 100% accuracy against an ESF that isnt trying to land on it.
The Skyguard fires 8 rounds per second so shooting a full mag takes close to 9 seconds. 32 shots takes 4 seconds.
The Skyguards flak travels at 400m/s



Now with that out of the way.

The shortest possible TTK a Skyguard can have against ESF is 4 seconds but to reach that TTK the Skyguard has to hit 100% of the shots.

@400m it needs to fire around 42-44 shots against a stationary ESF to get the needed 32 hits.
@500m it needs to fire around 50 shots to get 32 hits.

Now 400-500m isnt far away in terms of aircraft, 300m is almost CQC combat so its more like medium range.
All of this can be tested in VG and all of these have been tested several times by me, I dont just take the first value I get unless its the same or close to the same several times over.

Just to show how "close" it actually is, pictures!

Is this that far away from the Lightning by the rock just above the aim? I wouldnt say that im very far away, I can clearly see it and I would be able to fire at it from here.





Oh look, it was farther away than 500m, probably closer to 550m since I have moved slightly closer now after placing the marker.

Lets just say that it was a Skyguard down there, at that range it would have to fire about 50 shots to kill me, if I just hanged here like this... and I would have to hang there a bit longer than 6 seconds for him to fire those 50 shots.

Im not sure but a TTK of 4-9 seconds with 100-46% accuracy against the fastest and most mobile vehicle in the game doesnt sound that great, infact it sounds like a terrible weapon. If you still think Skyguards in particular are too good against ESFs its clear you are as biased as it gets. Skyguards are a support weapon and little more, only really distracted, suicidal or BAD pilots would die from it.

They need to buff the flak protection cert line for the ESFs. Most of us run auto repair. A more viable option for flak protection - or just straight mitigation against everything instead of 15% versus flak would make it more usable then just having it work versus flak. It should be across the board 20%. Then people would use it versus auto repair.

Lets get down into details. Ive played this game since it launched out of beta. I have flown every esf and gained around 750 total hours and a TON of reputation. Im a A2A fighter. Never fight ground unless Im screwing around or I want that specific person dead. I think the damage of flak is fine right now. MY only problem is 2 things. when i'm NOT even bothering the ground some random skygaurd negates me from winning dogfigths 600m away. literally 4-6 flak hits from a phalanx turret a hex away can put me smoking? I call ******** on that design and to the fact that 44 tankbuster rounds doesnt even one clip them anymore which was stupid as hell anyway. I got 2 solutions. For the last, mother effing time SOE. Raise the FREAKING flight ceiling cap. IS IT THAT hard, it would fix people who main A2A ( like me) to FIGHT a2a only and not complain about stupid flak from the ground 600m away hitting me. OR the other solution is to negate damage over range because the damage of flak is primarily the same at any distance ( dont quote me on that) or atleast feels the same. Theres nothing more annoying then being 2 hexes away from a battle and STILL getting hit from one stupid turret. In conclusion imo the best thing to do is to increase damage of Flak ( I know it sounds crazy) in around 100-200m radius of where its firing from and decrease its damage when farther than that by like doing 1/3 of its original damage. It would punish people who ground pound more and forgive people who dont want to bother the ground and just go A2A.

Awhile ago they actually removed the direct hit part of the damage for flak and just put it into the explosion. So now flak just has to hit in your general direction to do the damage it use to take some actual skill to pull off.

Ground noobs just gotta have their way. Needless to say I just don't fly anymore, much easier to just use a max or a tank and get far more kills lol.

Edit: I'd like to add that a G2A lock on doing over half of the hp of an esf is a joke. Not a funny one either.

ESF's are made of wet paper, still I suppose they have to be, don't want to make it so people have to learn to fly to counter an ESF or at least aim. I have given up trying to learn to fly too much lock on spam and flak melts hp at a ridiculous rate

Armor in this game is a joke all around, infantry run riot because ya know god forbid armor actually be dangerous

Why shouldnt a Skyguard be able to help against ESFs?
Holding air superiority is much more than zerging the air with ESFs, as it should be. Most pilots arent even doing "fair" fights, more often than not I see lone ESFs getting ganged up on and if that one is a friendly and im around with my Skyguard I sure as hell want to help him as much as possible.

I have even been sent tells from pilots thanking me for helping them from more than certain death just by throwing flak infront of 2-3 pursuing ESFs.

Even if its a fair fight doesnt have to mean the other pilot wants that, he is probably happy about the extra damage and distraction the flak is doing but I agree that the flight ceiling is too low since several areas in the game are hundres of meters up in the air leaving only 300-400m to the ceiling and that its stupid what they have done with the turrets taking more shots from Liberators. The damage buff/nerf is good but the range would have to be higher, most ESFs fly 200-300m above ground even when ground pounding then you have to add the diagonal distance from the Skyguard to the ESF, even a ESF flying low at 200m can easily be 400m away from the Skyguard and that would still be close range :/