Discussing A2G/G2A balance and ways to improve it on both sides

Welp, the title says it. Countless of threads have been made, but they didn't last quite long and this topic has great potential if we're going to minimize the cheese factor in the game. Time to make the thread to end all threads...

So let's start from the most controversial ones!

1. A2G ESFs and the ways to counter them.

Now, I'm not implying that all A2G ESFs are OP, but there's a specific build that is a tad bit too good, and that's the Lolpods. They just do... EVERYTHING. Be it vehicles or infantry, they're going to destroy it. Hell, even air to little extent if you can aim well or if the targeted pilot is just daft. Removes the point of having A2G nose-guns, what's the point? I remove all the ways of countering air (There are Coyotes and Lock-ons, but it takes a while to kill air with it, and nose-guns are nose-guns) just to be slightly more cheap (LPPA splatting infantry with the splash alone and Mustang AH cheesy OHK) but apart from that, Lolpods are just better. Spray 'em and win.

So how should it get toned down? I'd like to see something akin to this :

• 50%/66% damage reduction against all armor types both light and heavy.

• Added CoF bloom (Don't make it big though, just enough to prevent efficient 175m bombardments) to prevent long-range cheesiness with absolutely no risk and give AI nose-guns a role of long-range anti-infantry weaponry.

• Increase in splash damage radius to compensate (Buff it to Bulldog level)

Now, the ESF with lolpods has to risk it in order to kill his targets while also not tossing AA potential out of the window.

If you want to take out vehicles, get Hornets instead... Speaking of Hornets, remove 2 missile kills for full health infantry. If you want to farm infantry, get lolpods. Also make them easier to use and better, they're really sluggish and don't quite have the punch to take out tanks. In their current state, lolpods have faster TTK.

The AI nose-guns, I only have one problem, and that's the Banshee. Even though you can do good with it, you can be an absolute farming monster with the LPPA, or kill high priority targets in a blink of an eye with Mustang AH. It's the mix of the two, but instead of doing everything on average, it does everything sub-par in comparison to other options. Is it fun to use? Yea. Are there better equivalents/alternatives? Yea.

Just make the splash damage radius decent and increase the damage slightly. It's too poor to compare to the others.

And about countering ESFs. I can see the frustration from both aspects. Usually you don't feel like you're doing anything to aircraft if you decide to attack them, especially with flak. The current system can be used by literally anyone, but it's so horridly inefficient that your opponent can just escape behind the nearby mountain and hide there until he's back to full health. On the other side however, it's frustrating to be shot from the other side of the hex and be completely unable to deal with it. So let's make that different :

• Flak? What flak? Remove flak! Give us more accurate and slightly more damaging heavy chainguns/lasers/gauss cannons to blast them out of the sky! By making them more accurate and removing flak, we're raising the skill floor and the skill ceiling by a considerable amount, so both sides are on a good spot.

• Increase the damage at close range but also the drop-off. Make them more efficient and powerful when ESFs are doing bomb runs nearby, but worse if you're trying to snipe them at long range.

• Increase the durability of Aspis AA phalanx turrets. The DPS can be slightly higher, but it's pointless if the turret is super obnoxious and rather weak.

And finally the Lightning Skyguard. My fixes for it :

• Give it an auto-spot for air vehicles and a engagement radar for air out to 200/250m. Literally be an emergency alarm for friendlies so they're alerted air is nearby. You also get certs for it or if the air vehicles get destroyed (Say, 50 XP).

• Give it a sensor that locates infantry and ground vehicles alike up to 50/60m but ONLY to the driver. If you're a lightning defenseless to infantry and ground alike, you should know who threatens your existence nearby.

• Apply the changes for flak in general (Above). Even as a proud infantrysider, I pity lightnings so you can increase the infantry damage too...

That should be it! What else... oh yeah, Liberators.

2. Liberators hurr durr.

I have a confession to make... Half of Forumside will destroy me if I say it but...

I think that except from two cheesy things, the Liberator is in a great spot! They kill tanks which are even more cheesy, and the range limiter on the TB makes it pretty okay! Sure I get frustrated by Zepher spam there and then, but I can get past it (Still better than magic out-of-the-blue Mustang AH).

HOWEVER, the two things that I don't like about it are :

1. The Solo-liberator.

2. The Afterburner on the liberator.

Self-explanatory. You should not have the power to get the most out of a vehicle that demands 2 or more people in it if there's only a single guy in it. Nor should a vehicle that combines extreme speed (With the afterburner), durability and power in a single thing. Those are the only two annoyances that I have with it (Not willing to talk about the bad Duster or Spur).

TL : DR ; Big thread is big, read it.

Thanks for reading m9.

I commend your efforts but it's almost impossible to have a dialogue with pilots in Planetside2 because all they want to do is fly around and farm ground targets. So compromise isn't going to happen.

I'll read it better tomorrow, but I think that if you update G2A you could already balance out A2G power without having to change it in any way.

aircraft should just be more fragile vs AA IMO only time i truly feel confident vs air is in my maxed out lockdown burster max

You pretty much pointed out some of the biggest issues air-ground synergy or the lack of it has atm.

A little correction tough ... you seem to have misunderstood how hornets work.
Once the missiles are launched you need to guide them ... which means you can (and should) without any issues switch back to your nose gun and add it's dps to the burst of the 2 hornet missiles (also galaxies realy don't like them^^)

I think the main issue a lot of dedicated pilots as well as non pilots have with esfs is the versatility ...
Most of the secondary a2a weapons are either ineffective or simply not very fun to use ... and at the same time even a lolpod esf that primarly wants to hunt ground units can stand its ground vs aircrafts without any major drawbacks (fuel pods are still very lackluster ... tomcats are imo only realy good in group fights and surprise attacks ... altough if you have the jump on your enemy you usually do the same if not more dmg with your nose gun)

Now that said ... there are insane issues with g2a too.
While the guy using g2a hates that pilots seem to always get away and doesn't have an engaging or fun time ... the pilots don't have fun either.

Disregard the crazy range and ease to shut down a whole area ... which i don't actually have any issues with ... the part i as pilot hate is that i can only run.

Engaging a mounted flak turret or a skyguard is for the most part suicide
(which is the main reason you see that stuff in compilations ... not because it's easy or something that just happens every day)

Maxes ... they can fall into the same category but require quite a high cert investment and some experience from the user ... so they fall a bit in a hit or miss thing.

Get the jump on a max with an airhammer and you ll shred him ... on the other hand if he spots you on your aproach and has mag size upgrades as well as both arms ... well you are toast

Ground lockons ... while a good pilot can guide them into trees, walls, mountains ... it's not easy and always means you are running and very vulnerable to for example enemy air or flak during that time.
It's true that an esf can kill the heavy with the launcher without any issues (irronically the exception is if you use an anti air loadout)
BUT from the pilots perspective for the most part it is impossible to judge who of the guys at the ground is the guy targeting them.

And sry but if you stay in the same spot after your first launched lockon then you deserve the death.

To switch it around ... how would you feel if your tank risks dieing within 2-3 seconds (less in a big fight) whenever you get closer than 300m to a fight ... all while you have no way to fight fight back.


Add to that the "high" nanite cost for esfs and the fact that the noseguns are a gigantic pain in the *** to learn aiming with (and the fact that escaping from an air engagement is actually quite tough for the most part) and i think you can understand why many pilots focus on hunting ground units ... with a vengence^^

Maybe adding proper flight physics would alleviate the issues.

*cough* *cough* submarine battles in the sky *cough*

"And it would seem like wisdom but for the warning in my heart."
- Frodo

From a Design perspective, in a game like PS2, you do not want to raise the skill floor. And in general, you only want to raise the skill ceiling when that higher ceiling only provides limited min/max boosts.

PS2 is a game that relies on either (1) sheer numbers OR (2) high skill to accomplish goals (or using some ratio of the 2). PS2 is also at its *best* when higher numbers of low skill players can stand toe-to-toe with lower numbers of high skill/strategy players. Higher numbers don't auto-win, and higher skill doesn't auto-win. Though with the ability for Crazy Higher Numbers to still win out.

Raising the skill floor just pushes more players out of the game. You want a low skill floor, so players can hop on and make an impact. High skill ceiling is good in that it gives players something to develop toward, but you want the added rewards for higher skill to be provide limited min/max boosts: you don't want to lock success away from the playerbase behind a skill-level-required wall.

I wish the skyguard was just a bigger walker rather than a flak gun.

I .... don't hate this OP so far.

I actually agree a fair bit on the lib thing -- ABs get it out of flak way too fast -- but they have the downside of being pretty useless vs ESFs so while it makes sense for the lib to not have them -- I don't really consider it a great option -- I run FS on my lib.



Also -- the Duster is awesome brah.

As for ESFs -- I understand your reasons for suggesting what you suggest -- but 1 of your suggestions for the rocket pods really don't match with your reasoning. I don't see how making lolpods weaker vs armor will make them more risky to use -- like at all. You have to hit a tank directly to damage it with a lolpod (I believe) as it stands. How about just making lolpods inherit ESF velocity accurately? That would make them harder to use at higher (re. safer) speeds and distances while easier to use when at closer slower speeds (where the ESF is more at risk?)

As for skyguards -- I doubt DBG is going to rework flak mechanics. As such you will need to make suggestions based in the realm of what we have. I don't think anyone would be adverse to skyguards having the same COF that AA turrets do. The COF is a bit ridiculous on them. Auto-spot is equally not going to work. If there is an autospot then 2 to 3 lightnings can keep 1 or more hexes (depending on the part of the map) completely free of air at will for little to no player investment. Worse -- good pilots will have no counter. I die in my skyguard to libs when they sneak up on me. I never die in my skyguard to libs when they don't sneak up on me. That's OUR skill/gameplay dynamic.

Agree for the most part on this but no, no no no no no to one thing. Please for the love of god do not give the devs ideas about buffing the wire guided daltons i mean hornets ;0. Seriously though those things do not need a buff at all in anything.

please share the secret recipe for that, because my experience is quite different. I've been bumrushed and facetanked from 300m away and mowed down multiple times no problem, thanks to the guaranteed 30s ttk. Something tells me that you are probably nuthugging a blob of MBTs and the lib feels more respect for the AP cannons than your tickleflak.

Really good suggestions, hope Daybreak is reading.

I agree with most of the suggestions, it would be good to specialise hornets as anti vehicle and rocket pods as anti inf.

I don't agree with getting rid of the flak though, flak is generally fine, the only issue it has is the ridiculous range you can hit at. Reduce the damage once you get past 600m heavily so that you cannot close down such large area of the map when it is open ground (like quartz ridge). Especially as a liberator, you can be hit a very long way off by flak if the line of sight is there.

"Remove flak!"

Someone stole my idea from another thread. Funny thing is, no one opposed that then and no one is opposing it now. Which is surprising to me. This community may actually be putting aside their personal feelings for once. Either that or the salty peeps are dropping out. Either way, I'm impressed.

I kinda agree with everything here. Sorta anyway.. don't disagree thats for sure. Except for the Hellfire/Breaker/Dual-Photon pods change. I think they're fine as they are. They've been nerfed not too long ago against vehicles. They used to be far more effective. And they don't have much punch unless you come from behind. And I do have to be honest.. even when they do, its a simple movement forward or back, or even turning that prevents the damage from escalating as soon as you take hits.

Rendering issues not withstanding.. you can see these things coming from a long way and duck for cover. So if someone does a long range bombardment on an infantry group. They should get toasted if not paying attention. Sort of the niche of the ESF to do what they do.

Solo-Libs. I don't see these as an issue. But they exist and well I have say from a team oriented mindset as well as from a design one. I don't believe they should. People have made suggestions in the past about developing a system that prevents seat switching and the like. But that's not really needed. All that needs to be changed is the Tankbuster.

Tankbuster is a unique weapon. On paper its balanced. Short range, HIGH DPS. And in reality when used in the capacity its not bad. But players have found a way to make it work in a unique way. The problem I have with that playstyle isn't what it is capable of. But that people are doing it period.

Here's what I mean by that. I don't like either my enemy or my allies doing it. The reason why is because they are not helping their team by doing it. That sounds surprising doesn't it? Well think about it. Is someone going to solo-lib it up in the middle of a massive tank zerg to TB someone? No.. they'd die fast from tank shells from a dozen people.

So what are they doing? They're off doing their own thing, probably not in a platoon or squad. And trolling likeminded lone wolf players who aren't even impacting the battle themselves. I'd be content with the idea of lone wolves trolling other lone wolves. But the fact is people use it in balance arguments time and time again and it gets a bit old.

The OP is right. The Lib isn't in a bad spot. But it is perceived as being OP because of some random acts of meaningless farming.

So what to do with it? That I don't know. Personally I'd remove it and refund the DBC/Certs. I just don't see the point of it in larger fights. It has to get too close. Either that or change it to be less trolly. Maybe increase its effective range, but lower the DPS. Course the default cannon Vektor and Spur look really bad when you do that. They need some buffs.

Personally what I would do with the Vektor is give it AI capability. Lets its rounds explode on impact to damage infantry. Increase the Spur to the Vektor's values without the splash as a start.

I'll say it briefly plain and simple:
- liberators should not have afterburners.
- esf shouldn't be able to hover at all (more like fighters less like helicopters).
- the Valkyrie is a transport vehicle in a game where Logistics ia not needed and it's balanced around having continuous repair which is a problem.

Lib ABs are powerful, sure, but it is literally the most expensive cert line in the game with the exception of ammo cap lines.
I think if anything they should go the opposite way and make max ABs default like they did with ESF ABs, that way the skill gap between lower tier and higher tier pilots wouldn't be so massive.

I don't think removing hovering would really make much of a difference. A hovering ESF is usually a dead ESF anyway. Hoverdueling shouldn't go away. It's more engaging and fun than having no choice but to run. The way the physics are, you'll never get behind the guy chasing you, so if you're getting chased you have no choice but to hope another ESF helps you out, or you pass by flak. With hovering, you can get behind them, and they can turn to face you, giving you both roughly equal chance of winning.

Sadly, you're right about the Valk. I wish you weren't though

Are you talking about complete removal, or just changing them to direct fire? Direct fire AA would be a boon since the damage could be buffed without making AA completely dominant.

It would make practice beyond just learning to point in their general direction valuable. As it is, a BR 1 with minimal skill can perform just as well as a guy whose been here playing and practicing since day 1 of beta, and thats not right. Not that BR1 players shouldn't be able to perform, but they shouldn't be at roughly the same level as someone whose been playing for years.

The secret is using those ASDW keys and moving your fat *** from your camp spot.

Sorry not sorry if I'm getting a bit salty here, but seriously, have you ever TRIED to use the Tank Buster against a moving target? Drive towards the Liberator once it begins a strafe run and you'll dodge at least half the shots.

Who ever heard of a peasant that tried to fly... everybody knows that it's so easy and that any half-wit can do it. If only they bothered to get up in the air, they'd wreck everything with the tankbuster/dalton. I mean, anybody can solo lib right?

Changing to direct fire. My bad, I didn't specify.

I said it more specifically in another thread. My personal idea was to remove the flak mechanic from everything except base turrets. So Rangers, Bursters (on the fence about bursters.. they're pretty short range, may agree to leave these alone, but they do need to lose their ability to fire from invulnerability due to spawn shields), and Skyguards.

To compensate for the loss in 'damage'. I'd up their direct damage and tighten their CoF to make them more accurate. Turning them into a more skill based weapon system. I'd even consider upping their damage vs ground vehicles so they're not useless (but still at a slight disadvantage) against other ground vehicles for when the air dries up.

The point here isn't the amount of skill required, but the amount of power return for the skill.
Everyone knows that there's a higher skill-floor before you can fly than you can drive. Imagine if the reward for reaching this skill-floor was OHK nosecannons, that would be too much of a reward for reaching that skill-floor compared to people in ground vehicles who have reached the same level of skill.

This is the exact same problem, just without the excessive OHK nosecannons: With the same level of skill, a solo Liberator pilot can absolutely wreck anything including a 2/2 MBT or a Skyguard or any other weapon. In fact, the 2/2MBT could have 15 times more skill and would still lose!
And that's the problem. For all the skill-waving around, there is an impossible to reach gap between ground vehicles and air vehicles. This isn't even a compensation for the higher skill-floor. It gives too much power for gained skill compared to ground vehicles. The fact that aircraft get some extra power would be logical, but at the highest level of skill this should have evened out again.