Discuss: would "deep cloaked movement" would be OP?

Discussion in 'Infiltrator' started by Moonheart, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. Moonheart

    I'm in love with the stalker cloak since it appeared in PS2. It made me come back to the infiltrator class, that I had left because I felt that the infiltrator didn't deserve its name, nor being considered as a stealthy class, split only because snipers and rambo roles.

    However, as fun as I think the stalker role is, I do not feel like its well balanced: In my eyes, we are not a threat big enough to justify how easily people can kill us.

    Strangely enough, we are even more vulnerable when moving than hunters, that cannot enter deep cloaking permanently. A hunter can turn back after a corner and answer with a spray of SMG at anyone chasing him carelessly, we can't.
    A stalker can't afford the risk to be spotted, because we such a huge disadvantage in firepower that we won't probably survive anyone starting to chase us.

    It lead into some situations that I call "stalker stalemates", where the ennemies being here, looking in your direction, we cannot move, nor act, no spot... without being immeditaly killed, and are force to wait for the ennemies to leave by themselves (which could be long if it happens to you near of a capture point)
    It also make the infiltration sometimes becoming quite long, due to ennemies running everywhere, and making you able to move only 5s every minutes.

    My feeling is that it would be more pleasant if we could move a bit in deep cloaking state.
    Running would be too much, but what about moving crouched? Crouched move is slow, patient... would it be too powerful if we could move like that without loosing the deep cloak state?

    What is your feeling about it?
    • Up x 6
  2. CuteBeaver

    Mobility in large scale fights is certainly an issue. There is no denial of that. This is also coming from someone who can place herself in locations out of reach/ observation in most cases. It only takes one person to end you, regardless of how well you kept track of 20 others. Our SPM is lower then any other class or build by a large margin. Ultimately the number of eyes on the battle make working as a stalker more of a game of probabilities. Your skill is simply weighing the odds and perfect timing. Small scale fights on the other hand are no problem. It is in smaller scale fights where stalkers have true freedom. Your idea is a good solution for large scale fights while not breaking enemies ability to spot us on the move.

    Ultimately think grievances about cloak stem from most lack of specialization. If I were to ask a sniper is Hunter Cloak working for you? They would probably respond "Yeah for the most part." Maybe they would complain about how far the sound carries or bugs. If I were to ask that same question to someone using a Scout Rifle they might complain about enemies seeing them cloaked and moving at 75 meters through scopes.

    Turn around and ask SMG user they probably would disagree saying ever since the patch which normalized cloak appearance, their risk of detection increased. All graphics settings see infils the same. Which is a wonderful change making it fair to all players. However many SMG users were taking advantage of those running on lower settings without really knowing it. So the impression to these people is now cloak feels worse. Users like myself who have been playing on High and Ultra knew how visible cloak was (for some) and never relied upon it while moving. The mindset is vastly different between the two groups of infils. If you occasionally run SMGs like I do: Ask yourself does NAC (nano armor cloak) actually help you? For me the answer is yes, but not in a way most would think. I cloak to clear spots and make it more difficult for enemies to track me from a distance. NAC doesn't function like a cloak should. Its just a very weak and loud reverse resist shield. You pair it with medkits for best effect. So while its helpful at times I don't think its mainstream enough for people to pick up and use effectively. Given how SMG requires near constant mobility NAC certainly offers nothing stealthy besides the ability to clear spots. It needs to be re-thought.

    So if I had a magical wand, and I could change something for each cloak. I would add an additional magazines worth of ammo for stalkers as a passive. Frankly its risky enough with just a secondary weapon, we also lack staying power in terms of ammunition. This is actually the biggest problem I have with stalkers in general. The large scale lack of mobility is a secondary problem for me. However its very real, and if after the resource changes 96v96 become the normal, crouch walking needs to be adjusted.

    Tweak Hunter Cloak, to its previous settings where you could not see any infil stationary beyond 50 meters while scoped in. Closer then that same rules apply as we have now. It becomes a preferred medium and long range cloak. SMG users with weapons like NS-7PDW, Vandal would still probably enjoy it taking advantage of that additional cloak time and blending.

    If I had to change NAC, I would adopt a lower power version of the previously leaked Specter Cloak. This was a cloak that made the infils completely invisible for a very tiny amount of time, even when sprinting. For arguments sake assume it put them in deep cloak even when moving. I feel this would be fine so long as the duration was short enough. Personally I think SOE went too far with the concept in the later tiers especially when they removed the cloaking sound entirely. I think this is what got the cloak scratched off the list. However the ability to cloak for a short 3 to 5 second spurts would be useful to SMG users. Probably more useful then NAC currently is. Imagine running with a Sensor Shield implant and being able to use your cloak to dart from one building to the next. Fun idea right - enemies would have a devil of time catching you. A 3 to 5 second cloak while it doesn't seem like much could allow you to change directions, take unexpected escape routes, or breach more effectively. You could also peek and spot for allies as well without risking instant death as you take a corner. I find it slightly sad Specter was removed instead of toned down because it would have been a very interesting play-style bent on confusing enemies.
  3. Klondor

    I am ever hopeful for deep cloak movement. Infiltrators already have it hard enough with their cloak being easily visible which nearly defeats the entire purpose.
  4. AlterEgo

    I never liked invisible rats...
    But hey, Stalker is just SO damn useless. People STILL see you even if you don't move. How do I know? Because I killed infiltrators like that.
  5. FuryM4

    I use stalker most for just sitting on caps, placing beacons,, scouting... Etc.

    I just find it more of a support class. But hey, try idling in a bush. Cloaked. It always works!
  6. PanzerGoddess

    agree on stalker.....I would like to see it revamped. The design behind it does not go well with the majority of play style this game offers. Using a stalker cloak on a random base with very few enemies can work great, even if the point is unattainable. Its used well ahead of any large force, but the time is always limited. Forces start to show on defense lines right before any base is about to fall. And unless you already have a decent squad drop before, your left alone, and the stalker becomes more of a useful skill to get out, not so much to actually attain any worth. I pistol is great for TTK if its one or two guys, but any more it becomes a game of survival more than actually trying to kill someone. And even if you can be an annoyance on keeping the enemy from retaking a cap, its either a matter of time or your basically a statue doing nothing.

    NAC is just worthless, never understood that one, don't see too many cloaked infys who get shot at survive in any open field unless they are truly lucky. If your getting shot at while cloaked its a sure sign they know where you are already and there usually will be someone coming to find you or another infy waiting for the decloack for the hs etc. My experience anytime someone comes looking for one infilatrator has done it before and a good chance if you don't get the drop on him or have a hard time killing said player, he/she is a not a noob and has a good idea how to play the "find infy game" your in for a real fight.

    The sound of a cloak....just take it away please, if I spot someone on my radar half the time I have no idea what class it is, I don't mind giving the surprise, but I can sure as hell tell ya if its a specced out heavy, I don't hear his shield pop before he runs the corner where Im waiting.......unless Im really deaf.

    And yes extra ammo.....every tried using armistice or the shuriken without ammo belt.....you can whip out every ounce of ammo in less than a minute if your crazy.

    I love the class, be nice to see changes. Funny u state two types, Rambo or sniper. I play both, still waiting to see an inbetween. Id like changes but I love the class as is too. Takes time and I personally have no issues playing in any situation, just try to change it up is all, weapons, etc.
  7. Rihannon

    A lower power version of the Specter Cloak sounds extremely nice.
    It could just be swapped with the NAC, that thing is not really.... usefull.
    I agree with CuteBeaver on pretty much everything she´s written.
  8. Moonheart

    Being on the infiltrator class sub-forum, I don't really expect any reader to say they wouldn't like a buff on cloaks. :D

    What I'm wanting more to discuss here is not if we think we need a buff. I think we all want one, being the lowest SPM in the game, and a class that rarely make in the top of any ranking.
    What I'm wanting to discuss here is if some of you feel that other players would whine and cry hard if crouch walking in deep cloak was made possible, and why.

    I have a hard time to figure however how other people would react to such change, and how it will impact other kind of infiltrators besides the stalker.

    For the stalker, being able to move deep cloaked in crouch walking would be mostly an amazing comfort change: you will be able to sneak in crowded bases much faster to position yourself, sneak in or out guarded rooms... but stalkers won't become much more dangerous besides that, IMHO, because no matter if you can infiltrate a place camped by 5 people, that won't change the fact that a stalker is too weak to make a rampage in their ranks then they stick together.

    But deep cloaking is a shared mechanism between all the cloaks. Giving crouch walk in deep cloaking to stalkers would give it to rambos and snipers too.

    For a rambo infiltrator, what would mean to be able to move in deep cloak, crouched?
    And for snipers?

    If there is any way for those two to abuse this feature, SOE will never give it to infiltrators.

    For exemple, let say you want to kill a sniper... is it going to be more complicated if it can strafe a bit in deep cloak between shots, in your opinion?
    And for rambo, is it really dangerous if they can move 12s in slow deep cloak movement before firing their SMG?

    This is the kind of things I'm wanting to discuss here: how crouched deep cloak movement could, overall, be abused in some way that would prevent us to ever get it from SOE?
  9. Rihannon

    Well, the simplest solution to the potential abuse of deepcloak crouch-walking would be to simply give it just to the stalker and not to the hunter cloak. But frankly, i have absolute no idea how hard/easy it would be to seperate these (deep)cloaking mechanisms coding wise.
    Personally, I dont think the hunter cloak should be able to crouch-walk while in deepcloak, just the stalker.

    IMHO the cloaks generally could or should be tied to, or encourage, certain playstyles as:

    Hunter : Sniping/Autos cout/Semi-auto scout (long-mid range, unchanged visibility)

    NAC: changed or replaced (specter cloak, 3s invisibility on rank 1, 5s or 6s on max rank :p) (mid-short range)

    Stalker: purest form of infiltration, 2 secondaries( no dualwield of course), deepcloak while crouch-walking and less nanite consumption while doing so (short range)

    But none of these things would really up the SPM i think.
  10. Moonheart

    I often feel like if the NAC was the cloak intented for rambo infiltrators, but this cloak is just not working well. The mitigation bonus is too low and not cumulable with the nano-armor to be interesting.
  11. CuteBeaver

    For the sniper, in most cases a hunter cloak as it currently stands will make them invisible given the distances they are being observed. Crouch cloak walking would only be useful if the sniper has a motion spotter down, notices an enemy approaching and fully charges his/her cloak in anticipation. When the enemy comes near to route them out simply cloak and slowly intercept behind them. Does it break anything? Not really... first radar is necessary in order to pull this off, so a sniper could simply be alerted and shoot them in the face old school in the first place. Not everyone is addicted to watching the mini map so I doubt its going to be serious problem. Also there is nothing stopping an enemy from bailing if he notices the sniper isn't where it should be. The sniper cannot go far with crouch walk cloaking so the enemy can take cover and wait for the cloak to fall off.

    For an SMG/Scout Rifle user it could be interesting for getting into doors or behind cover. Imagine you take cover behind a tree for example, crouch down, enter into deep cloak, and slowly back up away from the tree. Enemy comes circling around shotgun in hand however at that time you are a little bit farther back from the tree so it would permit a well timed counter. I kinda of like this because it means you could have two styles of SMG play, or at least more viable scout rifle play. One type which uses a cloak designed for CQC and the other simply designed for blending and counter attacks. Would this change anything? Well considering infils can poop proxy mines behind them I really don't think so. A long time ago it used to be considered foolish to chase blindly after infiltrators for exactly these reasons. Mind you this was back when running Proxy Mines with SMG was the most popular loadout. Mines also didn't have glowing flashing lights either. As medkits became more popular players learned it was safe to chase down infiltrators.

    Ultimately without being able to recharge your cloak with stalker, the value this brings to hunter cloak is considerably less. Hunter Cloak runs out very quickly and the player wont be able to get far enough before farts begin alerting everyone of his / her presence... Meaning its only useful for micro engagements. What I mean by that is situations where your already in combat with someone. It would be very possible for enemies to counter this with a darklight, or spraying bullets in likely locations where the infiltrator tried to hide. I think the deafening cloak sound would ultimately prevent abuse. Enemies would know the infil has cloaked. If they understand the infil is cloaked nothing is stopping them from finding cover, or re-positioning a distance where they are out of range from the infiltrator. Especially good tactic to consider with the new 1HK knives. Personally I think it would be more interesting for Scout Rifle users in particular, but ultimately Darklights are the hard counter to all forms of cloak and their states.
  12. Dualice

    It was that way, once upon a time. Think they put a stop to it with the big infiltrator patch last year. I can kind of see why - with maxed Nanoweave and Nano-Armour Cloak, a body shot from a Gauss SAW would do 90 damage instead of 200.
  13. Zoobe

    LOL at this thread. Cloaks are supposed to be ACTIVE camo, not complete invisibility.

    In that context they all work great if you understand cover, and not moving in shadows. Only time you will be seen cloaked if moving correctly is if you take some damage or are running in the open without hiding you shape. Cloaks work GREAT, and yes, of course deep cloak would be totally OP.

    NAC is awesome I think, does allow you to take damage and survive to reposition.
    Stalker works perfectly if you are careful with positions and do not just sprint straight at targets or across open areas.

    Think differently, they are not invisibility devices they are active camo.
  14. CuteBeaver

    WOW **kicks the high horse out from under him**

    Get on our level. No ones asking for buffs to cloak visibility. This is a DISCUSSION thread. You know talking about something? Bouncing ideas back and forth. Really... So I guess your saying "Get GUD" I'm already perfectly fine thank you. I don't need an arrogant jerk like you telling me or anyone else who has enough balls to post their true thoughts on here to shove off.

    In fact why don't you bless us oh knowledgeable one and show us some tips and videos just how good you are? How exactly do you move about in a 96 v 96 battle and get your amazing long streaks? Whats your SPM playing as a stalker? Have you ever actually checked? To me it sounds like you have no idea what your talking about regarding stalker cloak and large scale fights. But please go on and CONTRIBUTE to the discussion instead of making me want to camp you for the next 2 hours.

    So ill ask you:

    Why would crouch cloaked walking as a stalker infiltrator be broken?
  15. Zoobe

    Calm down, please, and do not put words in my mouth I never insinuated anything close to the get gud scrub I'm sorry you took it that way.

    This forum is full of posts about cloak being broken, sure you know that, as is this thread - NAC is useless - etc, etc. Most claiming they can be seen anywhere, anyhow anytime. I have found the opposite to be true when playing Inf. I think the three cloaks are good right now. Enjoy them all and have them all maxed out as they are useful in the right situation, but tend to SMG and NAC mostly as stalker can not do much around objectives, apart from support work, which is great but limited.

    Personally I find NAC to be really good, if you use it to cut corners, or peak them and have a drop on a enemy, or enter a space where you may take damage before uncloak or to escapea space, it mitigates a lot of damage and you are cloaked allowing you to get cover far easier. Combined with max NWA I think it works amazingly well and is almost perfect for SMG inf, imho.

    Do agree on more ammo though for stalker, that is a breaker for that class IMHO and really limits its killing potential.

    InF has OHK weapons, and the only chance your opponents have of actually fighting you is if you do break deep cloak and that may be a short time to react especially now knifes can be primed. In addition, by crouch walking in deep cloak you would not be detectable by any of our recon tools, making it a very one sided fight.

    I would not choose to play stalker inside a large scale fight, what you going to do apart from kill a few bods on the periphery. Unless it is to hack those vehicle terminals or a turret, there is not much else you are going to be able to do apart from essential recon which it is perfect for. However if you want to go into that fight and contribute on the objective, NAC with a SMG is a far better choice.

    Again sorry to offend you was not the intention.
    • Up x 1
  16. CuteBeaver

    Alright. I see where your going with this. Its okay I totaly misread your intent there. I am honestly sorry for attacking you like I did. I am just really sick of people saying "stalkers are fine" when they are really not. I have tried absolutely everything in my power to make it work.

    One thing I'd like to challenge is this mentality of selecting not to do something because its difficult. Waterson vs Ceres I overloaded the Biolabs SCU despite a small army of maxes. It took a while but I doubt a non stalker could have made that robot mess. Stalker certainly helps pester other locations along with LA's, and hold rooftops for long periods of time but ultimately what ends up being the limiting factor is unlike other classes and spec's there is no primary to fall back on once you have been made. A disadvantage versus everything. Frankly I just sprint around and use cover with stalker between ambushes because your either perfectly concealed or fleeing for your life.

    Staying in an area too long just means your going to die. In large fights many times movement means your going to die as well. Cover is the only way to mitigate this. So here lies the problem. In small scale fights we can go and do as we please. Death boils down to the quality of the ambush. In large scale fights death often comes because one of 50 people happened to see you after having spent several minutes and a considerable amount of effort to reach a specific location. Retaliation often just delays the inevitable. Ultimately it feels broken in large scale fights especially those were cover objects cannot be used as a band-aid solution. This is just the game and level design working as intended i suppose. Too many people in tiny base is bad time for performance and other factors as well.

    I do agree with in principle is the yellow section. Frankly I can already sprint bolt knife someone before they have any meaningful time to react. However I know by sprinting towards them others could intercept and see this both visual and on the mini map. They have a chance to save the target and there is considerable risk. I had honestly overlooked 1HK knives because I picked it up, tried it with a Spiker, and went straight back to bolt +(classic) knife without a second thought. So yes just creeping up in an altered state of crouch walk, and stabbing 1 shotting someone is probably not going to be a morally "good" thing. I am not sure however if the knives create a sound when being pulled out into wield mode. I do know they emit a loud buzzing sound when activated. I also know this doesn't help much since de-cloaking and activating the knife can be done very rapidly. However if pulling out the knife also made a sound then problem solved as far as I am concerned.

    The trouble is where does the line get drawn with stalkers...

    I could have the insight to sit right next to an open window, and just wait for the enemy to come to me. Is this technically any better? In both cases the victims have little to no warning. No radar detection, nothing. In both cases the kills are relatively easy on part of the stalker. Do we have to think about getting to the window first in order for the kill to be legitimate? Is sitting there waiting part of the price that must be paid? Really I am throwing this out not to be rude, but only to pose the question. What is actually fair here?

    Is it fair to ask someone to stand still in the same position for minutes at a time and not permit them to move in the slightest or face a firing squad? How do you balance out the fact stalkers are performing poorly? What other solutions could exist to fix it? Frankly as I stalker I get bored sometimes because we are lacking objectives and purpose. Its sad really considering in small and medium scale fights you can chain ambush after ambush but once you start reaching the point where eyes are everywhere it becomes a task of observational tedium just to move 10 yards because you don't have a primary and have no hope in hell of winning 1v1 frontal exchange. Are kills made against stalkers in this way morally acceptable as well?
  17. Zoobe

    No problems CuteBeaver.

    Personally, I feel the quoted statement you made is really the biggest issue.

    There is really not much the stalker can bring to the bigger fights. Sure, it is important to hack that vehicle terminal, and or the turret, but you are at risk of dying there instantly and in most situations that terminal in even medium scale fights will be brought down immediately. Recon is limited by ammo and hence as you said, far more ammo would be useful to provide prolonged recon as at the moment, that is really limited to moments if you want to cover any significant area.

    Spawning the sundy and supporting the fight is a big contribution, often far more useful than killing a few enemy. However, rarely do you see that from the majority of stalkers they will hack the terminal and either try to kill the person who comes to destroy it, or uncloak and try and kill the first person they see which is no where near useful and often feels like they are on a suicide mission. I would be really happy to see a large bonus XP for achieving that hack x sundy spawn during a battle as it is possibly a massive contribution to the success of the mission, quite often the catalyst of success. Increasing XP for stalkers in deep cloak spotting enemy would also increase its value during bigger fights, and of course the value of that action is quite profound. Makes it more of a Spy and rewards the value of that action. Right now I never ever spot as stalker as it simply gives you away if you are anywhere near enemy. Maybe stalker could silently spot.

    There is also no real scaled XP for the value of the target you take out, like the engy repairing a sundy, terminal, max or turret or whatever. It would be good if there was. A engy repairing a max taking out your teams sundy, or air is a massive contribution and worth the death. Your single action to kill that engy could change the tide of a battlet. At the moment other than hacking something and killing there is not much value in this cloak, imho, in a large battle where your enemies are rarely alone, stalker is not going to stop those multiple HA from pushing forward if in any kind of group. It is great fun, and a huge challenge to make it work of course.

    In summary, this is where I think the real issue is with this cloak, you are almost a spy, or ninja assassin but you have zero reward for carrying out your mission. Could spend 5 minutes getting up the tower to kill that engy on the max sitting on the flight deck spamming AA and AV, and your contribution gives you nothing for that time and ability. No other class could of done it, no other cloak.

    Firstly, if it is about killing a enemy then there is far better clases to do that with. Personally I do not see stalker as useful in that regard. Unless it is ghost cap, or 1v1 you have very little chance of overcoming defenders in any kind of group. However, yes, I think that stalker is all about getting there first, waiting, and position for that kill that may be really important. That is the price. unfortunately right now there is no reward for that and you could of earn far more XP with just about any other class, or cloak in that fight.

    I love stalker cloak, I do not find it broken but also do not really play it as there is little to no reward other than self satisfaction which can be enough, I also find NAC perfect for SMG inf, and Hunter perfect for Sniper, but Stalker feels broken in terms of risk x reward game mechanics.
  18. PanzerGoddess

    " I also find NAC perfect for SMG inf, and Hunter perfect for Sniper, but Stalker feels broken in terms of risk x reward game mechanics."

    this is still an odd statement everytime I see it.....if your sniping....does having either cloak work better than the other, besides the fact you get a 50% regen rate on hunter....if your half a mile away, the chances are both cloaks will work just the same for you. Ive used NAC and imo I find hunter far superior in terms of any type of combat, long range, medium range, cqc. Unless your prone to running over AP all the time then perhaps NAC is for you, however you need to be cloaked in order to have its effects. If your not smart enough to use your environment in any sort of combat in game then I guess NAC is a crutch. Only time your getting shot at while cloaked is if either two things: your in the open, or someone knows where your at and has a tale on you. In my experience chances of survival are far great using hunter than NAC.

    If your always looking to shoot someone in the back with your SMG, how does NAC come into play. As well if your trading rounds with someone, again how does NAC come into play. The issue with NAC is when your cloaked, if your taking rounds, means a few things

    1. Your gonna die soon
    2. Your changing positions
    3. Your trying to ****
  19. Zoobe

    Well at half a mile who needs a cloak. I do not really snipe from far, but if spotted I want to reposition and move often across openings where hunter, as you have said has longer duration and faster regeneration, so is better in that regard. You answered it yourself.

    SMGs have some of the shortest TTK in the game, why do you wish to just limit to shooting in the back. With NAC and NWA max, there is no need.

    With recon tools you know enemy positions, and have a shield to mitigate damage. I do not use it primarily as a cloak, but as a shield. To make use of that TTK you need to close the distance to the enemy which may often be carrying weapons with greater medium range TTK. I use it to corner cut, peak and if take any damage it mitigates a substantial amount allowing me to return fire or escape with lesser damage. There are also numerous ways of being spotted, radar on maps do not perfectly show distances of recon darts, or motion spotters. Scout radar, implants spotting anything you damage, etc.

    Essentially I use it very much like HA resist shield. Rounding a corner, pop shield, entering a dorr, pop shield and etc. During fire fights you can also flash it on and off to mitigate some damage, to confuse the enemy or to have a chance to reload easier. It is a different play-style to Hunter, which allows you none of these things. However, if you want to cloak, and you want to sneak, sure hunter maybe better, but that is not everyone's SMG play-style. No need for it to be with NAC and SMG.
  20. ezaroo

    Just to point out, deep cloaked movement would make literally zero difference to your survivability.

    To explain why, our eyes are so finely tuned to movement it doesn't matter if it is a hard to see object the fact it moves would make us react to it.

    Think all those animals with camouflage fur, if they sit still you don't notice them, the second they move you spot them.

    To prove all this, you sit deep cloaked and just rotate, you will be shot... You will however still be deep cloaked.

    So what we actually need to get the effect you want is a cloaking pass that just reduces visibility by ~10% in movement state and ~2% in deep cloak. Ideally we probably want pull in the point where a cloaked infi catches your eye to about 25 m for moving cloak and would make deep cloak essentially invisible.

    But even then movement would still give you away... And we can't just not render people, the game has client side hit detection. This would mean people couldn't hit you if you weren't rendering for them - cloaked infi = invincible I feel that could be an issue.

    Btw I get people saying cloaks are fine, they pretty much are but they need something. Even a noise reduction, if it's quiet those things go 300 m...

    Actually my vote wouldn't be visibility reduction, I'd remove the faction colours from cloaks again (unless a dark light is pointing at you) that would give you the split second hesitation you used to get...
    • Up x 1