https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV1E&output=html If any VS or TR players with the Extended Mag certs could confirm those numbers (especially the Cosmos) that would be great.
I've updated the spreadsheet with min and max cone of fire stats for things like crouching, moving, standing, etc.
Whelp kinda shows why NC MAXes seem so effective. Their weapons are practically on-par with infantry shotguns while TR/VS AI guns fire at about 337/400 RPM. While carbines/LMGS/ARs fire at about 600-750 RPM.
So the hacksaw can unload 6,006 x 2 = 12,002 in approximately 1.2 seconds. The blueshift can do 6,680 x 2 = 13,360 in about 6.84 seconds. It takes the blueshifts almost 5.7x the time to unload only 1,358 more damage. Now, NC should have CQC dominance for sure, but they still would be CQC dominant even doing about 3x the amount of damage (in relation to the blueshifts) in the same amount of time. It's almost double that now. Balance pass please? Although the Allatum farm last night was worth a lot of experience to ammo/repair VS engineers and great for medics too, it gets extremely stale when lasting over 24 hours simply skillsawing any few people dumb enough to run out in front of the several sitting on every point (including any VS/TR max that feels like getting instagibbed by the hacksaw rather than the insane explosion radius of tank mines into the shield room entrances).
You need to keep in mind just how much pellet spread and damage falloff reduce an NC MAX's effectiveness over range. Even in a Biolab there are rooms and corridors that are long enough to be outside a scattercannon's effective range. The Hacksaws have the widest spread of the NC weapons. There's a very noticeable point at which you can't engage another MAX and it takes almost all of both your magazines to bring down one infantry.
True, but even if you did the same amount of damage 3x faster you'd dominate other infantry and maxes. 5.7x faster is still excessive. 3 max repair engineers repairing a vs max are just barely enough to keep him alive before a single dual hacksaw has to reload without extended mags. Also, where in a biolab are these corridors, beyond the teleporter room and airpad corners right? How abouts should we breach these with 3 dual hacksaws camping each point without bringing 10 or more maxes?
Even the generator room is long enough to get range on a scattermax. Entry through the jump pads also favours TR and VS MAXs. I think part of the problem is that scattercannons have two usable certs that can benefit them a fair bit, whereas TR and VS MAXs don't really have options for certing their guns. At one point there was a laser sight cert listed for the cycler and quasar. I think that if the TR and VS had options to tighten their CoF they'd be better able to exploit their range advantage. Right now it just seems like the certs for the NC MAX are more complete. I also think a lot of this is perception based. The NC only pull scattermaxs in situations where they are favoured. You'd have a very different opinion of the scattermax, if you routinely saw it in outdoor combat or the more open bases.
I'm not talking about outdoor combat, i'm talking about indoor combat. You're bringing irrelevant situations into play because at 3x the speed of other faction maxes you'd still be instagibbing infantry, is instagibbing not good enough? It has to instagib everything in close range? You don't think it should be toned down at all, even a little bit ?
I think that Scattercannon should be reworked in such way: 1. Less pellet spread to make it more effective outside of 5 meters range. 2. Greatly reduced damage per pellet (or slug), like 50%. 3. Double clip size.
NC Scatter has that much total damage if all the bullets land on the target. You cant expect all those bullets to land on the target unless you're point blank to it and in that case you deserve to die. NC scatter maxes are no problem at like 15 meters out. I'm a VS max defending the NC max.
Our MAX is godly in the 10 meters range, when he is USELESS outside the 15. I dont think we can call that OP, it is too much situational to be. The only thing that should be done is a change in damage to others MAXXES. But i dont see how to tone down damage to others MAXXES without render NC MAX completely useless. TR and VS will dominate NC at every range.
But you can't just talk about indoor combat just because it suits your argument and does not address the reality that most of the game takes place at longer ranges. Yes the NC Max almost instagibs people at PBR, beyond that it's almost totally worthless. If you toned down that PBR performance you'd have to improve Short and even Medium range performance. I'm all for that but you then risk making it too similar to the other maxes. I barely use my Scatter/Hacksaw Max and when I do I'm pretty much trapped in a small space waiting for targets - if I venture out I can be hosed down long before I can even start doing decent damage in return. Meanwhile TR/VS Maxes feel lethal at practically all ranges.
I find it really funny that the Cosmos not only has the most rounds, but is the most accurate VS AI weapon no matter what you're doing. I also 'love' how ****** the Blueshift is. Only wins at reload speed, loses at rounds per magazine, fire rate, accuracy, etc. I want to know what the developer was smoking when they gave that gun these attributes. Especially the max CoF, it's not only out of line with VS weapons, but it's even bigger than the max cone on TR's weapons as well!
It's easy, add 100 ms to the refire timer. You still completely gib infantry at close range and maxes stand a slightly better chance. Theoretically with an extended clip you could go through 20 uncerted infantry or two full health maxes as it is in 2.2 seconds. Obviously that's not going to happen. I love how half of you are ignoring how I said it should remain CQC king and still gib infantry, my problem is that you can down a max in under 1.2 seconds. But we suck at range, BUT YOU CAN INSTAGIB MAXES (~10k HP) and then some at close range! I'd honestly rather see the instagibness toned down slightly and give your maxes a slightly tighter cof. It's just stupid to bring a max into a fight against your ai maxes because it just doesn't matter, 3 full repair engineers don't even make a difference. Also I can just talk about indoor combat, because almost every single point that needs to be captured is inside or outside within that range. If you see someone that's not in the range say at a smaller territory you just charge up to them and gib them anyways. Once the distance is closed nobody stands a chance to even realize what happened. I'm even fine with that concerning all infantry classes except other Max's. Defending it's TTK on other max's is just silly. Also, Intruder, it doesn't "almost" instagib people at close range, it straight up does, ruthlessly, and "almost" instagibs max at close range. If you're running extended clips it basically instagibs maxs as well. Even with 3 engineers fully certed into their repair tools 740 certs (2,220 combined certs) and their max who had to buy the AI guns stand no chance against an extended clip hacksaw. It will die in that 2.2 seconds it takes to unload your 20k damage. 4 people using teamwork shouldn't stand a chance against 1 person in a beefy suit ?
Your numbers are wrong, but you're essentialy right. I am firmly convincted that damage from NC MAX to others MAXXES are unbalanced and should be nerf, but it should be intelligently. You can read my previous posts. I do care about balance, it isnt fun for me to instagib enemy MAXXES. Anyway, the numbers are : 4200dps@0meter/10meters if you land all your shots.
6,006 damage per clip, 10,296 with extended clip. 12 shots in extended, 200 ms refire timer = 2.4 seconds and over 20k damage. So slightly wrong yeah it takes .2 seconds longer to dish it out Thank you though for agreeing with the max part. Like I said I don't mind that infantry gets gibbed by your max units, that's your specialty, MAX units should not get gibbed though.
