[Vehicle] Current MBT Balance

Hi guys,

I want to take a look at the current MBT Balance, based on what ps2oraclestats shows and the reality ingame looks like. I am going to ignore the "KPU"-Stats, because the stats of uniques per day is basically irrelevant for balancing analysis. Plus a Conclusion at the end.


Primaries

HEAT



Pretty interesting, because it is the starter weapon.
As everyone can see, the Prowler's HEAT Primary is by far the best in KPH statistics. The VG slightly better than the Magrider.
Everyone having a 2nd/3rd... character and is starting to tank on those sees that the 2-shot of the Prowler is the best for infantry, vehicles and heavy aircraft. The drivability feels good, the Prowler is quick, the recoil is low and the 2-shot very forgiving. The Vanguard's Heat is best for ESFs and the Magrider... meh.
Prowler>>>Vanguard>Magrider




Less clearly, but again Prowler>Vanguard>Magrider

HEAT Summary Prowler>>>Vanguard>Magrider

AP



This time it's Prowler>>Magrider>Vanguard.
What is interesting for me here, is that the Prowler-AP's VKPH has drastically decreased compared to the others since the Gatekeeper-etc-Patch...The Gatekeeper is stealing all the Vehicle-Kills now?



KPH - The Prowler is way the best again, the Magrider and Vanguard very even.
Aircraft KPH - The Vanguard is twice as good as the Magrider/Prowler
http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=akph&weapon1=3730&weapon2=4008&weapon3=3460

AP Summary Prowler>>Magrider~Vanguard


HE



Most would have guessed that the Magrider outpowers the VG and Prowler here because it can climb hills in a 90° Angle and farm bases from there. Also the mobility of the Magrider allows it to hunt infantry by using a Radar... Wrong. Seems more like a niche advantage that is only available to the most skilled Magrider drivers that doesn't have a great impact on the statistics.

It looks like the forgiving 2-shot with high DPS neutralizes the Magrider's mobility advantage against Infantry.
While the Prowler isn't made to farm Infantry masswise.

Prowler~Magrider>>Vanguard


SECONDARIES

Let's start with three different same Secondaries I find very interesting to look at.

The Halbered


3 Identical Tog Guns on 3 totally different Vehicles.
The Magrider's has a higher VKPH than the Vanguard's which has a much higher one than the Prowler's.
Why?
I think it's because the Magrider has the worst secondaries. The Prowler has the best.
So a Halbered Gunner on the Magrider can grab more Vehicle Kills than a Halbered Gunner on a Prowler, where the driver gets all the Vehicle Kills.
This has an impact on the other secondaries as well.

No rating.

Long Range AV Secondaries





When looking at the KPH and VKPH stats one could think that the Gatekeeper was balanced.
However, you have to keep in mind the Halbered-Problem. The Driver gets all the kills the Gatekeeper prepares.
The higher the Damage per Hit (at the same DPS), the higher is the propability to get the kill before your driver does.

Only the AKPH Stats show how good - easy too use and a long range monster - this weapon is.

Rating: Prowler > Saron ~ Enforcer


Short Range AV Secondaries






Some very different Statistics here.
While they are pretty even at KPH stats, the Mjolnir and the Aphelion are petty even at the VKPH stats while the Vulcan seems to be the worst (Reminder: Halbered!).
Also in terms of AKPH, the Apple iOn is the best, followed closely by the Vulcan and the Mjolnir is by far the worst against Air.

All in all: Magrider~Prowler~Vanguard


AI Secondaries




Pretty clear thing: The PPA is Crap.
Even the Marauder on the Prowler, the tank with the better Driver Weapons to Farm infantry and take the Kills before the Gunner can... has better stats than the PPA. The Canister has a pretty even KPH compared to the Marauder, eventhough the Marauder is on the Prowler... I can just say that on the Harrasser, the Marauder is better. However the PPA needs a serious buff.
Less, way less blooming, less direct damage dropoff (reward hard to do direct hits on high distance).
OR
Keep the blooming, increase projectile velocity and splash ranges.
or something different... the heat mechanic thing on PTS was almost good enough...
Would be my suggestions to improve it, but to not get back to the pre-nerf PPA....

Rating: Prowler~Vanguard>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[...]>Magriderp



Conclusion and TLDR

Apart from some draws, the Prowler wins in every category and is now officially OP.
The Magrider and Vanguard all in all are performing pretty even on the secondary-side (except PPA), the Magrider however could use a slight improvement of the Primaries or half a dozen of Bugfixes...

Now, DISCUSS.

Another cry baby from the Virgin Sovereignty, crying about how balanced the game is because his Magrider doesn't win in 1v5 scenarios.

Nothing to see here.

The data you quoted from is as corrupt as someone with a 10+ KDR who never leaves a spawn room. Infiltrating the data is cert farmers, directive farmers, and KDR padders.

You want real data? Take it from the server smashes. And put it into context to how it is actually used. But whatever you do, take the corrupt portion out.

Also, if everyone is using the same weapon, for example the Gatekeeper, then of course the stats of that weapon are going to exponentially be higher than any other alternative in these charts.

These charts don't prove anything is OP, only what people are using and what's popular.

The 5 Phases when someone reveals that one of your farming toys is OP.

1. Trolling
2. Anger
3. Nerf
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Obvious that these mindless comments in a serious discussion have to come from a TR.

Server Smashes pfff... that's the least realistic environment to compare Tank Statistics. Well, apart from the Test Server, maybe.

Asks for a discussion, then immediately dismisses any rational explanation that opposes your point of view as trolling or dis-credible..?

#PasitheeVS
#euphoriaoverload
#neckbeard

You seem to have the intelligence of a Potatoe Chip.
I'd show KPH Values here. No matter how many thousands or millions people are using these weapons,
this won't push the KPH values.
Seriously, are you dyslexic or something and couldn't read this acronym or what it stands for?
If so, it's ok. if not...

Or don't you speak English that good, mein Freund?

If the Gatekeeper's true power was being concealed by most of the kills going to the Prowler driver, then there would have been a sharp up-tick in Prowler AP VKPH after the ESAV patch. However, that's not the case.

Actually, KPH tends to go down as the number of users goes up. The reason is that with a lot of users, most them are going to be extremely average players, using the gun in suboptimal situations, such as Zerg following. When a weapon has few users, they tend to be experts, so the KPH is often very high, even if the weapon is bad, as in the case of pre-buff burst weapons.

I saw this issue after reading what I wrote.... seems pretty strange but doesn't have to be illogical.
Maybe the pure existence of a good long range AV 2ndary would decrease the primary's VKPH, while also the VKPH of the 2ndary is being limited or decreased by the way too good primary...

While not as pretty as graphs, the 30-day averages might be useful for more direct comparisons.

Data

HE by KPH
Prowler- 46.39
Magrider- 43.46
Vanguard- 35.96

The Prowler and Magrider are fairly evenly matched, with the Prowler being 6.7% more effective than the Magrider. But both are significantly more effective than the Vanguard at AI work... the Prowler being 29% more effective than the Vanguard and the Magrider surpassing the Vanguard by 20.6%.

Prowler HE > 6.7% > Magrider HE > 20.6% > Vanguard HE

HEAT by KPH
Prowler- 21.57
Vanguard- 17.21
Magrider- 16.66

HEAT is a bit more even. The Prowler leads the Vanguard by 25.3% and the Magrider by 29.5%. The Vanguard is just slightly ahead of the Magrider, by 3.3%. Vanguard and Magrider are actually fairly evenly matched here... it's only the Prowler's AI potential that might need adjustment.

Prowler HEAT > 25.3% > Vanguard HEAT > 3.3% > Magrider HEAT

HEAT by VKPH
Prowler- 6.09
Vanguard- 5.66
Magrider- 5.49

Also fairly evenly matched. The Prowler is ahead at the head of the pack, but only with a 7.6% lead on the Vanguard and a 10.9% advantage against the Magrider. The Vanguard has a very slight 3.1% lead on the Magrider.

Prowler HEAT > 7.6% > Vanguard HEAT > 3.1% > Magrider HEAT

AP by VKPH
Prowler- 12.24
Magrider- 11.53
Vanguard- 10.87

Reasonably close actually. And probably the most even spread so far. The Prowler is about 6.2% more effective than the Magrider, which in turn is 6.1% better at killing vehicles than the Vanguard.

Prowler AP > 6.2% > Magrider AP > 6.1% > Vanguard AP

Now for the ES secondaries.

ESAI by KPH
Vanguard- 61.26
Prowler- 57.99
Magrider- 36.8

Unlike with primary HE cannon, the Vanguard leads with ESAI options. It is ahead of the Prowler by 5.6%. The Magrider's PPA, after receiving the uber-nerfs, lags far behind. The Vanguard has a 66.5% advantage over the Magrider, and the Prowler can boast a 57.6% lead. This is one of the least balanced categories.

Vanguard ESAI > 5.6% > Prowler ESAI > 57.6% > Magrider ESAI

ESAV/CQ by VKPH
Magrider- 12.85
Vanguard- 12.54
Prowler- 9.9

The Vulcan was never a good performer on the Prowler, and this shows. The Magrider only has a slight advantage over the Vanguard, and with a 2.5% difference it's largely negligible. But both the Magrider and Vanguard are leaps ahead of the Prowler, by 29.8% and 26.7% respectively.

Magrider ESAV/CQ > 2.5% > Vanguard ESAV/CQ > 26.7% > Prowler ESAV/CQ

ESAV/LR by VKPH
Magrider- 12.95
Vanguard- 12.9
Prowler- 12.08

Surprisingly, the newer ESAV/LR weapons are decently balanced. The Magrider only has a slim 0.4% lead on the Vanguard, which is less than a single percent. The Prowler's Gatekeeper is slightly weaker than the Magrider by 7.2% and the Vanguard by 6.8%.

Recommendations
Based on the above data, these changes might help better fine-tune MBT balance. Anything less than 5% was negligible. From a 5-10% difference slight buffs might be required. Differences above 10% may require serious buffs.

Prowler
Major buffs to Prowler ESAV/CQ AV capability
Slight buffs to Prowler ESAI AI capability
Slight buffs to Prowler ESAV/LR AV capability

Magrider
Major buffs to Magrider HEAT AI capability
Major buffs to Magrider HEAT AV capability
Major buffs to Magrider ESAI AI capability
Slight buffs to Magrider HE AI capability
Slight buffs to Magrider AP AV capability

Vanguard
Major buffs to Vanguard HE AI capability
Major buffs to Vanguard HEAT AI capability
Major buffs to Vanguard AP AV capability
Slight buffs to Vanguard HEAT AV capability

There would still be some change. Any decrease from one would lead to an increase in the other. There's no third weapon system... the VKPH isn't being siphoned away into ramming kills or something. Everything you've posted has shown the Gatekeeper to be relatively balanced (within the realm of the in general over-performing Prowler).

Thanks for taking the time to put together a detailed post. As far as DBG is concerned, the time for balance passes on existing gear is long past. Unless it's new (and therefore making money / keeping people in game) it won't see change.

It's unfortunate, but that’s just the way it is. I hope to be proven wrong.

After seeing your 'TR is the OP faction' post, I'm really having trouble taking anything you say seriously...

Not really, the Halbered clearly shows, that the primary is limiting the VKPH/KPH of the Secondary. Drastically.
On the Magrider it has almost twice the VKPH than on the Magrider. You can't ignore that.
Also, the VKPH of the GK is better than the VKPH of the Vulcan and the supply of kills is limited, plus the better our Weapons are, the less likely are enemies to pull vehicles against you....

I find some of these suggestions ridiculous.

I assume that second Magrider was supposed to be a Prowler.
The Magrider also has superior Halberd VKPH to the Vanguard, yet it also has the superior AP cannon. That doesn't fit your hypothesis. Either the high alpha damage of the Titan is helping it secure the kills, or you simply get less 1/2 Magriders than you do Vanguards. Likely a bit of both.
Still, if it's true that the Primary is limiting the VKPH of the Secondary to a significant degree, then there would still be a dramatic, and sustained up-tic in Prowler AP VKPH upon the release of the Gatekeeper, WHICH THERE WASN'T. You've said nothing that counters that point.

Might be better to turn the "Major Buffs" into "Slight Buffs", the "Slight Buffs" to "No Change", and then maybe rein in some of the top performers. Gotta avoid Power Creep.

Well certainly many of them seem to fly in contravention to commonly "understood" conceptions in PS2. To name a few:
Prowler Gatekeeper is OP
Vanguard AP is OP
Magrider HE is OP

Sure, I've heard the stories too. Not like I haven't been around on these forums.

But I dunno. Which do you believe more...
Selective anecdotes, limited experience, and unsubstantiated hearsay
Statistical evidence from thousands of hours and players

Unless you can find a specific reason why the data is not applicable, I would trust the numbers more than intuition.