This is pathetic. If you care about KDR so much then this is the wrong game. Not to mention your KDR stat is even more worthless because you cheaply quit to pad it. It's sad that you consider such a cheap, unsportsmanlike (and unhelpful to your team) tactic a strategy. In my eyes a 0.5 KDR player is better than you, assuming he tries to avoid such cheap tactics and helps his team instead. Can't help your team if you log and go back to warp. All to deny someone some exp...
If NC maxes werent so broken I wouldnt do it. Nerf scatmax damage by 75 % and I will stop logging out the moment I see one. Also, when a scatmax causes 95 % of all deaths while playing regularly, then something is clearly wrong.
Nope, Ravens/Fractures would have been garbage at the distance/in the situation I was using my Vortex's. The only thing they would have gotten me is killed, but I don't expect someone like you to understand that weapons are situational. If you had that capacity you wouldn't post the endless mouthbreathing rants about Vortex's/ZOE I see on these forums.
Firing from a distance of under 300 meters at which both the ravens and fractures are extremely effective would have gotten you killed? I guess we can exclude long ranges like 300 meters from the said situation you might mean. Perhaps you were talking about short range infantry fights....well lets see, 1 shot with the ravens 2 shots with the fractures(using both arms obviously). Nope i guess the vortex can once again be excluded from being good in this situation as well. Then perhaps you were talking about short range AV fights. Ill take my comets for that purpose thank you. Only 1 possibility left then, which is indeed extremely situational and unrewarding, AV fights that exceed the 300 m range. AKA the range where tanks appear as a single pixel on your screen and it takes a miracle to kill anyone with any max weapon. Needless to say, while you keep tryharding and keep getting crappy scores with the miserable excuse that is called vortex, I will proceed 1 shotting infantry left and right with the ravens.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvQvAbkRdvjDdFIwbWZwSnJWbjdGNnJ6eGZUcmMzSVE#gid=0 You mean the miserable excuse for a weapon that's currently out-performing your weapon in both score per-hour and vehicles destroyed AKA its' intended role? While also having 25% less deaths per-hour than the other two weapons? Thought so, stay bad my friend.
And exactly because I'm bad or more accurately average would be the term, I roll with ravens which allow me to decimate everything within my sights in an instant, rather than play with the vortex, which requires you to be an absolute prodigy at FPS in order to last in an environment where you are within a range of 300 meters of enemies. Perhaps there are indeed 2-3 people on this planet who could actually perform somewhat okay with the vortex, in all cases your results will pale in comparison to the ravens and fractures. So like I said, keep tryharding with that garbage, while people who accept the truth take the easy way out and reroll.
I'm not sure if you understand what average means or how numbers work. Those stats in my last post are the averages of every person using those weapons for over an hour. As in, even for the worst person Vortex's performed better at their intended role.
Hi, so last week I got into a discussion with a few people about the Vortex. I stated that in my opinion, aside from it's increased projectile velocity, it was crap vs. the Comet. Frosty the Pyro was kind enough to come in and give the DPS values adjusted for reload for each weapon and showed that the Vortex DPS was greater than I had thought. I finally got time to go to the VR and check. Now I know the VR can be wonky, so I ask anyone with information as to why these times would occur to please respond. I tried both the Vortex and the Comet on the two Vanguard tanks directly out from the vehicle terminals. Range was 10 meters from target as I was checking only damage, not adjusting for travel time to target. Please, go into VR and check these times for yourself. I did each test 5 times and averaged the time. I did not do anything to purposefully corrupt the test. Again, if you know of a reason why these times don't match the current belief about these two weapons, please share. These are the average times, I used the Stop Watch function from my phone to get them. Rear TTK: Comet: 8.5 Vortex (L1 shots only): 9.8 Vortex (L3 opener (counting 2 second charge)): 10.1 (yeah, this surprised me as well, thought it would be much lower. If you discount the 2 second charge, then the time is 8.1) Side TTK: Comet: 17.4 Vortex (L1 shots only): 19.3 Vortex (L3 opener): 18.8 (16.8 if you discount the 2 second charge) Front TTK: Comet: 19 Vortex (L1 shots only): 19.5 Vortex (L3 opener): 19.3 (17.3 if you discount the 2 second charge) Shots to Kill: Vortex Rear: 29 (L1) Vortex Side: 57 (L1) Vortex Front: 63 (l1) Comet Rear: 12 Comet Side: 24 Comet Front: 28 Please, if you get different result tell me along with what you think I might have done wrong. But as you can see, from my results the Comet does better DPS than the Vortex. It does better burst damage than the Vortex as well. And under 180 meters, which is the 2 second charge up the Vortex needs to do 490 (infantry value damage mind you, vehicle is double) damage and the distance the Comet can travel in that time, the Comet performs better (provided you can aim). Edit: This is from a thread I started to carry the conversation there. Didn't realize this thread was still active. http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...vortex-vs-comet-straight-damage-check.126131/
Isn't the Comet performing better than the Vortex in everything except vehicle kills? Its score per hour is lower, kills, it has less people using it, but for more average time than the Comet. I think the increased projectile speed is letting Vortex users kill steal at range better than anything else. Also, why would the Vortex, which has significantly less people, average higher deaths per hour than the Comet? 610 Vortex users with lower averages than 4852 people on everything but one category, and not that much better in that category, doesn't bode well for the Vortex stats.
You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, so why are you so obsessed with theoretical damage? Surely you realize that at the ranges the Vortex is meant to be used you wouldn't land 1/2 of your Comet shots. Unless your target is AFK or stupid that is, but under realistic conditions it isn't going to happen. True enough on the stats so far, however, kill steal at range? Really? You want to make random speculations in the same paragraph you quote hard facts? Makes you appear biased and hard to take seriously. What exactly are you getting out of this debate? I'm willing to chalk this one up to the general populace still not knowing how to use them to their full potential yet. Regardless, I find this whole Comets Vs Vortex argument rather amusing as they both have their place. Comets are for short to medium range and Vortex's are for medium to long range. To argue that one is superior to the other is preposterous.
Well, I think the reason for this whole comet VS vortex discussion is two-fold. First, the topic of this thread is which weapon is better against enemy MAXes, and second is comparison of the vortex against the raven/fracture and the comet against the raven fracture. My argument is, and has been, that the vortex doesn't even outperform the comet, let alone compete against the other two weapons. I previously discussed the ranges the vortex was meant to be used (based on it's weapon design) and discussed why adding a long range av sniper weapon to a close to mid range combat unit, without giving it the ability to aim down the sights or to use optics, is just a bad weapon design. People countered that even at close range, spamming the L1'shots would produce more DPS than the Comet. This possibly proves them wrong on that point. I disagree that at 180 meters or less you can only hit stationary or afk targets. The velocity of the comet is 90 m/s so at most you have to lead 2 seconds out. But then again, once you get to 150 ranges there are much better options for av than an av MAX, and that again goes to my argument against putting a long range weapon on a close to mid range unit. As for my kill steal speculation, yes it is just speculation and is not meant as a personal attack against anyone in particular, however it is supported by the fact that you have a high velocity projectile on a low burst damage/low dps weapon. If used at range, the target would have time to gain cover unless they were getting nailed by other sources, vortex user sees this and fires the killing blow. I'm not saying they are being anything other than a team player, so perhaps kill steal is the wrong term for the data on that chart. How about finishing blow? I think the vortex, because ofthe charge mechanic,'lacks the burst damage to be viable in close combat. I think it also lacks the accuracy and DPS to be viable at range. If you intentionally pull a Vortex MAX to deal with a vehicle at the ranges the vortex starts to beat out the comet, you are choosing to spend resources for a weapon which doesn't perform nearly as well as resource free options at the same range, and those weapons don't limit the user as well. In general people don't intentionally pull AV MAXEs to fight armor that is 200+ meters away. They pull av MAXes when they were in their AA or ai loadout and armor just rolled up on them.
Sorry havnt been on the forums in a fewe days. whats your click rate? vortex is suposed to max out at 180 rpm or 3 shots per second. In order to reach 63 shots ( van front armor from your tests) with 2x vortex should take 14.33 seconds (63/2 round up = 32. There will be two reloads at 2 seconds each. so 32*.333=10.666, the final refire doesnt count as the shot is already in the air, so 10.333+4 seconds of reload= a calculated ttk of 14.333 for vortex to the front of the vanguard). To have 19.5 seconds you need to be fireing at 120 rpm (or a 0.5 second refire) which would result in the vortex pulling 615 dps instead of 820 compared to the commets 691. The math calculation for duel commets to put out 29 shots is 19.25s, which is apropropiately close to your value of 19s when you take in human error of a stopwatch. As for VR wonkyness 29*475=13,775 and 63*210=13,230. A discrepency of 540, which isnt too bad honestly, the max discreptioncy you would expect in a fully mathamatic way would be 474 (the lower damage landing right on but the higher overkilling as much as it can), but throw in some burning time (which you will incounter if tryin to test precise shots) and a little extra is to be expected. On the otherhand acording to patch notes a stock van has 68% front armor, which when combined with are known MBT health of 4000 that would give an expected effective health of 12,500. That is a large discrepency, and weather that is VR weirdness or inacurate patch notes I do not know. the values you got would indicate around 70 or 70.5% front armor resistance. The expected and observed health difference is greater than can be explained by burning (which rather slow) A good way to check would be to compare your other armor facing shots to kill to expected values. For the side 24*475=11,400 for comets and 47*210=11,970 for vortex. And for the rear 12*475=5,700 for comet and 29*210=6,090. The expected values for van side (65% armor) is 11,429, and for vanguard rear (35% armor) is 6,153. The side values line up apropriately, almost perfectly for comet and it looks like you overkilled the side by a shot or two with vortex, not hard to do if you are tryin to click as fast as you can. The rear values are close but off a bit, you could explain the vortex difference with some burning, but the comet difference is a bit large, it would take quite some time to burn that much. On the otherhand if the vanguard had the same rear armor as MBTs (30% isntead of 35%), then the expected effective health would be 5714, which would have your numbers being right one with the comet, and a shot over with the vortex (again not unexpected if trying to keep up a proper fire rate with the vortex), or you miscounted and it took one more comet hit than you reported. Best way I can think of to test that would be to take a 2000 damage weapon (AV Mana turret, pheonix, or decimator) and hit the rear of a vanguard 3 times. 2 shots should not cause any burning, so if the 3rd shot kills the value is likely 5714, if the third shot causes it to burn for a while before exploding the value is 6153. Considering the side an rear closeness to expected I would guess that either the van had more front armor than expected or its VR wonkyness there. In respect to the vortex and your testing, its obviosly not keepin up with its max fire rate, which would either be you bein a relitively slow clicker, or the vortex is misrepresenting its fire rate at 180 rpm.[/quote]
Copy pasting this here, for those following this thread. The remainder of this discussion, comparing the Comet and Vortex, will continue in the other thread so as to not clog up this thread with a discussion which is only tangentially related. Frosty, thanks for responding. And thank you for the calculations. I will double check the vanguard rear armor with a deci in a bit, just got home from work and all. I wanted to respond before I went to eat. My click rate was as fast as I could manage. I don't have that number to give unfortunately, but as you point out mathematically it was well below the 180 click/release per minute needed to reach the damage potential. I was clicking and releasing as fast as I could (the Vortex fires on release, not the click) as I wanted to avoid/reduce as much human error as I could. I don't think it was entirely my click rate however. Like I said, I was clicking as fast as I could, but I noticed two things: 1. The shots didn't seem to fire as fast as I clicked: If others reading this thread could please try to reach the 180 rpm the Vortex says it is capable of, I would appreciate it. I just don't seem to be able to get it to fire that fast. I'm not old and arthritic, but I'm not a youngin either, so if one of you quick fingers could check it out and respond here, that would help us all. 2. The Vortex has extreme recoil rise: The recoil rise of the dual Vortex got so extreme I nearly started shooting over the vanguard, and that was from 10 meters away. I'm not sure it's possible to maintain that rpm anyway, not and still be accurate with it. The recoil got progressively worse, more than you would expect and the guns were bouncing all over the place. As I said, I was 10 meters away and nearly kept missing. I'm thinking that realistically it isn't feasible to reach the 820 DPS that on paper it says is possible. I think that with the combination of recoil, the semi-auto fire, and perhaps a slight fire delay caused by the charge mechanic, realistically the Vortex DPS is much, much lower than it is on paper. This is probably why every time I have tested this thing, from PTS to Live, it has performed like crap for me. As I said, I'll double check the armor values of the vanguard in the VR in a bit, but I think this might be a major reason why I haven't been able to feel that the Vortex is anything other than crap.
While the recoil of the vortex might be bad when you're spam-clicking, you're spam-clicking a weapon that's intended to use with a charge-up mechanic, what did you expect? Anyways vortex are fine, as long as people are crying over how "bad" they are they won't be nerfed, I'm happy.
Stats are great and can be used to prove anything. In actual use, if you're a VS max and less than 50m from a TR/NC max your only choice is to run, regardless of what weapons you have. Sad, but true.
Just got my max killed by an NC max with dual busters. I saw he had busters and thought it would be an easy kill with my mercies. I didn't have full health but stil... What a surprise...
The way to get the best dps out of the vortex, theoretically anyway, is to spam level 1 shots. This has other problems beside the recoil which prevents this. Check out the thread which asks for Frosty's response to see test results and numbers. Also, considering that the very data posted in this thread supports statements that the vortex isn't performing well suggests that the people "crying" are correct. It doesn't stand up to the fracture or raven. It is fundamentally flawed. Anyone who uses the weapon as it was designed to be used would be better served in almost every way by using the original version, the Lancer, and not this cheap knock off.
Someone claimed to create a macro that auto spammed l1 vortex shots. That might make it easier to achieve the theoretical max DPS, but you still have to adjust for recoil, and also the macro might be illegal.
I love comments like this. As anyone can see by looking at my stats I'm a terrible player so comments like this make me feel like a boss because I have no problem what so ever with TR and especially NC MAX's. In fact whenever I see a NC MAX with AI guns I think, "oh good a free kill". In CQC I run dual Nebula's with extended mags and max kinetic armour, and there is no way for a NC MAX with AI guns to beat me. The other day we were fighting the NC at Crossroads, and 1v1 their MAX's just didn't stand a chance. They would unload their entire magazine into me but thanks to my max kinetic armour I'd still have plenty of health left. The smart ones would then try and run, emphasis on try, while the not smart ones would just stand there and die before they finished reloading.* As for the TR MAX, if he's using dual Onslaught's (which for those that don't know is the mirror of the Nebula) he'll only have a minuscule advantage in extreme close range but I'll have a significant advantage at all other ranges as well as being much better against infantry. The same can be said for all other VS and TR mirrors. If a VS MAX user is having problems with TR and especially NC MAX's that are using AI guns then I'm afraid the problem is not the VS MAX. Sad but true. *For the record, no I don't think this is an acceptable state for the NC MAX. They were OP before, there is no question about that, but this is equally unacceptable. Hopefully the Aegis Shield will finally bring them to a balanced state.
