[Vehicle] Balance

^ this

though if i was a dev i'd absolutely cringe at the idea of adding more faction specific stuff,
because you just know that folks like Pacster will make your life a nightmare with their constant victim complex nerf-herding.
its so much easier for the devs to just spam out NS stuff and not have the constant nagging "oh my gun can't do that!"
"oh their gun does more damage per shot than mine!"

i play all 3 factions
i'm fine with TR dominating at infantry AA with Striker.
i'm fine with VS getting a OHK infinite ammo sniper rifle with no bullet drop.
i'm fine with NC having the best max in cqc.
the game would be so boring if all factions performed the same.

Well the community response to new stuff is somewhat like this:

"what do you mean they have a new toy and it works? Its effective? Sigh. What **** put a working and really effective at is role piece of equipment into the game?''

"yeah, I heard its fun too mate, can't be having that. Already put a thread on forums though. Going to make those people who spent station cash quit for good.''

''Got that nerf inc now bro! We can finally play our own faction again and stop cussing the game in overwatch. Thing barely gets a kill after a full mag now on pts. Get Rekt. '



Still hoping to get some stuff eventually though. Get the new doku carbines in plz.

Agreed, it is hard to guess what the original developers of PS2 really intended.

From my view, they did a spectacular job with the game design given how complex it is and the absolute freedom to do whatever, with trying (and in many ways succeeding) to bring out asymmetrical faction balance.

Problems came in with network performance limitations, graphics processing, and the monstrous uncertainties introduced by way of players with wildly varying FPS (potato settings vs ultra settings), and network connections. This is where I believe the original devs left off, and subsequent changes since have tinkered with something that may well have been excellent from the start, like trying to make a perfectly round wheel rounder only to result in imperfections creeping in no matter the change.

Example 1: TR guns I believe are supposed to have a DPS advantage so that getting the jump on someone means the extra DPS and precision (if recoil patterns are controlled just right on certain guns) they will win especially on close-medium ranges. The specifics of high damage/low RoF versus the inverse remains a topic of debate: Someone would have to actually work out the math and graph damage output with respect to TTK on both damage profiles to see, specifically, when each damage profile's total damage output matches a given TTK sooner or under what basic quantifiable circumstances (distance, armor, class type, magazine size, bullet velocity). After that, one could approximate the final variables (CoF bloom rates, controllable vs RNG properties on recoil patterns, tracking moving versus stationary targets) to determine exactly how these two extremes play out in game, and how to adjust them so each properly has its 'home field advantages.'

Example 2: TR guns' faction trait of high RoF are adversely impacted by FPS, demonstrated quite clearly thanks to certain planetside2 players from their video recordings in controlled settings, and audio timestamp analysis, and seeing the discrepancy in RoF in-game yourself. Hit registration failures due to network is also a topic of debate on how they impact the two damage profile guns, with no real clear answer.

Example 1 shows the complexity of the work they have created to keep the game interesting for all factions, and example 2 shows the extra layer that's confounded the original design, with the resulting mess and ongoing tinkering as the fallout of it all being experienced.

A final part that's hard to implement is how the factions and platoons leverage their faction potential, especially if one playstyle ends up meta because of how FPS games work. If TR is supposed to shoot more bullets, that leaves each player exposed and less mobile and therefore vulnerable to ambush or otherwise an easy target to snipers and every other shooter in range. If the Mosquito is supposed to be an interceptor as someone suggested, making use of the racer chassis, what use is it when all too often the meta revolves around 1vs1 in the air that requires hover chassis.

Winner and losers of the fallout: NC wins because they have a complete arsenal that has no downsides and in practice does not lose as much to hardware and server limitations and problems. VS loses because they don't receive their faction traits where it matters (0.75x ads, no bullet drop on guns where it can help), questionable or unfair mechanics like unstable ammo, heavy nerfs (maelstrom nerf on mag size, lancer nerf, orion/betelgeuse nerf, zoe max nerf). TR loses to poor equipment (TMG-50 needs a buff for their long-range LMG), RNG firing patterns/poor accuracy on too many guns, worthless attachment options, and other aforementioned problems.

groundplay with few exceptions is ..
however anything involving air to almost any degree is a massive PITA imo ..

And every single time I refute you. I tell you that MAXES are not like pistols cause pistols are just pulled to finish players off and hence have better KPU than primiaries(which are not only used against already heavily injured targets). MAXes are compareable to each other cause they are used in the very same way....secondary and primary numbers can't be compared that easily. You will lose every single time cause I will always pin you when you try to abuse statistics and create logical chains that are not logical at all. You'll repeat it. I'll repeat it. You'll repeat it. I'll repeat it. I win.

Wait. Last time VS got something that was ES and "asymmetrically balanced"(which every OP stuff of NC seems to be...according to you) you have been all over the forum whining how imba Starfall is(and you got Flash ruined even more along the way). Before that it was Canis I think. And weren't you complaining about Orion/Betelgeuse as well before the nerfs happened? Call me crazy but I see a pattern there. Something along the lines of "asymmetrical combat is fine as long as I don't end up on the short end of it...EVER".

Spare me the niche infinite ammo sniper rifle without bullet drop. That neither matters against vehicles nor on point. That's just a toy for some KPD elitists that want to spend 5 minutes sitting around waiting for an easy kill at some terminal. And seriously if I as VS got to choose between dealing with striker or NC MAX, I'd gladly choose striker ANY DAY. They are not even close to being in the same league although striker obviously is much, much better than lancer. You are comparing apples with oranges and pretend they are they same...but they aren't.

High RoF weapons shoot more bullets in the same amount of time fired as low RoF weapons. They do not have to be exposed for longer and if anything can output the same damage in less time. High RoF weapons are also more mobile, not less. They offer flexibility in most combat scenarios and require less aim to succeed compared to low RoF weapons. What reason is there to believe the mossie is supposed to be an interceptor, and even then why would the scythe and reaver not be?

If you refer to the damage models of all ES weapons you would find the NC generally has the same number of different damage models as the TR, often in the same ratios. The VS however does consistently lack an additional damage model compared to the NC & TR having almost exclusively variations on the 143/750 damage model. It would be difficult to definitively say the NC has a more varied arsenal than either the TR, though they do have fewer or the same weapons of each type of damage model compared to the TR.

Furthermore the NC's low RoF weapons suffer greatly and have many more downsides than high RoF weapons. Bloom, ease of use & unforgiving nature, and easily increased TTK without even having a TTK advantage in the first place. All factions have at least some higher RoF weapons, and virtually all weapons are affected by FPS limitations.

The rest are just total non-issues.

Thank you for confirming your bullcrap! You proclaim I dont use the stats, I tell you I do and then you "refute" that, which you can only do if I used the live stats in the first place.

Then I point out in another thread that I use performance stats for weapons...

Pacster: "thats hilarious coming from the guy who ignores NC MAX live stats"...

You are destined to repeat this cycle forever? I hope not because it never was a good way of getting results and its getting old already.

Did I use the wrong word? Happens. Sorry, english is only my third language. If hanging up on a word is what it needs for you to win an argument, keep going...;-)

But planetside ain't a spray and pray game. No matter what weapon: If you do not hit at least the body with almost all your bullets you gonna lose a fight.
Shotguns are not exactly high RoF...therefor they pack a punch and I would not say that they need that much of a better aim. Especially given that you almost only need to hit the head with other guns to reach a similar TTK on close to medium range.
I anyway think that most guns are so close together that a bit better aim and who starts the fight usually determines who wins in such cases. To me that is more of a spreadsheet theoretical discussion that hardly ever really matters in game at the moment. That's not the case with NC MAX or vanguard shield...with those you cherry pick the situation, go in and unless you are A LOT worse than your enemy you gonna come out as the winner.

No not a word, but the entire meaning of a sentence. This is the third(?) time now that you proclaim that I do not use the live stats and when I point out I do that you ignore your mistake and repeat it later. This isnt hanging up on a word, this is a consistent problem on your part. 3rd language or not you should have learned from your mistake. And now instead of learning your mistake you try and blame me for not comprehending a single word? Which word am I supposed not to understand? You are strawmanning again trying to blame me for your own mistake.

... that´s not how this works .. but if you think so ... whatever ..

have your "win" ...

wow that was a lot of BS, but lets start prodding at the stinky pile shall we?

firstly, NOPE, i never once called for a Starfall nerf, i did however call for buzzard buffs,
because back at the release it was absolutely terrible (and still mostly is), but no, i never called for Starfall nerfs.

wrong again, the faction specific BRs were the last releases,
and Obelisk is clearly vastly superior to Dragoon and Bishop,
all 3 BRs share the same damage, Rof and velocity with a little extra thrown in,
NC got some freaky piercing mechanic that i have still never benefited from (despite running it in one of my main loadouts.)
TR got "automatic fire", which on a slow firing precision weapon is totally pointless,
and VS? VS got their infinite ammo and no recoil trait, AND their no bullet drop trait,
AND an attachment that lets you use it like a hipfired LMG with a lasersight.

they easily got the best of the 3, have i called for nerfs? nope.

hello pot, how is the kettle?

all this time we've been talking i've been pointing out things from each faction that the other factions don't have
and saying how I AM FINE WITH THEM HAVING IT, what about this implies that i only want my "main" faction to have things?

is this the VS victim complex again? you have THE BEST sniper rifle and you're like "don't talk about that! its not important!"
you really don't want to talk about the heat mechanic because of how powerful it can be in skilled hands do you?
infinite ammo and no reloads is EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD at point holding.

lastly wrong again, i'm not comparing anything, did you really think i was comparing them?
those were just 3 examples of things that each faction has that is superior to the others...
if i mention how TR get the best harasser weapon in Vulcan and NC get the best max ability in shield, i'm not comparing them,
i'm just giving examples of some of the things that each faction has that is better than the other 2 factions equivalents.

TL;DR: i am perfectly fine with all 3 factions having their toys and i don't want to see ANY of the toys taken away.
i would hate for folks like you to get your way and have everything unique (that isn't VS) removed and made boring.

Well, not primarily so. Guns like the MCG, Lasher, kinda auto-shotguns, all MAX MGs, the PPA, unstable ammo Canis, you get the idea. For every gun built and reliant for precision and accuracy there's a spam cannon. Also the whole "spray at the head" style some players use.

Regardless, high RoF weapons can not only miss more shots and still win, but even if both a high and low RoF guns were to land all their shots, if latency skips a round or two the high RoF will once again pull ahead. In a realistic engagement there will be misses on both sides and in all likelihood latency will drop a few shots. Add in nanoweave, auxiliary shields, and/or heavy over shields and the advantage once again swings heavily over to the higher RoF.

As has been said to you many a time, shotguns require much better aim on average to maintain their TTK advantage compared to other weapons. Unless of course using the overpowered auto-shotguns.

Better aim usually does win. Usually.

Spreadsheets help understand how an engagement will play out and why. Sure, in a sense theory doesn't matter if it does not equate to reality, but every engagement can and does happen more than once and will continue to happen. Statistically, the majority of engagements will reflect theory.

This is a fallacy. MAXes and vanguards like virtually everything else cannot control their reality and do not dictate the world around them. No one can simply pick and choose which fights they like and everyone is caught on the enemy's terms from time to time. Not to mention the NC MAX and a shielded vanguard aren't exactly the most incontestable units in the game.

I can't help but notice you hardly even related your response to my quoted post.

So how exactly is the Obelisk performing? Yeah, it's better than the other guns that got introduced then...but is it outperforming the guns already in game? No? Then the gun does not really matter for balance...it's mostly a fun toy. Once I got it on auraxium it's second to Eidolon on my list for sure(cause seriously, I prefer to have 20 shots in my magazin over having only 6 before cooldown).

No, I do not talk about sniper rifles cause that would mean to compare them with other sniper rifles and I neither play them much nor do they matter when it comes to capturing points. I believe those snipers tho that unless you are somewhere without ammo supply the phaseshift is definitely not better than any of the counterparts. Again: Those are toys for people that play some "who got the highest KDR?"-game that has nothing to do with the game I play. Most of them are just easy victims and as infantry I die much less to them than to vehicles or even close combat infils. They just become really annoying when camping some terminal...but even the worst sniper rifle in game does a great job there.

So you did not want it...but you somehow managed to get every single game changer of Vanu nerfed into obliviation. This did not happen to NC. Still you call it balanced. How so?

You mentioned three things that are not compareable as example. Thing is, you did not have much too choose from on Vanu side there...while on NC side it's not just the shotguns of MAXes...no, the shield of MAXes comes on top of that. And the Vanguard shield and the Airhammer, and the Phoenix and so on. "But, but, but you got unlimited ammo and no bullet drop on small arms"(Obelisk got no recoil? What? My weapon got to be bugged. I see no difference in recoil behaviour than with Eidolon, Warden or Bishop...never heard of VS or VS guns having that trait either. Not sure what you are talking about there. Not playing enough VS maybe? The phaseshift, you remember, the so op sniper rifle, likely got the worst recoil in game)...although unlimited ammo only matters once in a blue moon and bullet drop only matters in long range fights and experienced players do not care for it at all. Bullet drop and unlimited ammo are like the Phoenix...yes, in some cases they can do the trick but when it comes to the big picture none of that really matters. It is NOT compareable to the impact of the NC MAX or the vanguard shield...nothing on VS side is. And the worst thing: They need very limited skill...every idiot can abuse them. Starfall and Canis got nerfed for the very same reason within WEEKS...but the NC stuff stays OP for like 3 years.
This is reality and got nothing to do with some vanu victim complex you little teamkiller.

Then which MAX got the highest KPU on AI outperforimg the others by a good margin during the last couple years? Come on, tell us. That is the one you denied for several years when telling the world that NC MAX is not stronger than others and that's all just some victim complex. You are just talks, now come up with the facts. But I already know this will start over again soon, cause it just does not matter to you to get caught with your pants down over and over again. It's just about calling for nerfs for others so your stuff does not get balanced...and you have been fairly successful with it. Congrats for ruining the fun for others tho cause it just ain't fun to run into an NC MAX or a vanguard shield. I can understand any noob that quits the game after that...

You can use any gun to spray and pray. You just won't win with it. There is a reason why lasher counts as crap just like PPA etc. and you only see it for the light show.. I personally like the Canis...but just cause it got unstable ammo it does not mean that you do not need to aim for head with it. If you just spray with that gun you gonna lose to anyone.

Semi autos do quite well too(currently doing Little Helper which is likely the worst of them and still a beast). Only pump action are unforgiving...but they are like sniper rifles.

I don't say that things on spreadsheets never happen. The question is how common in game they are...and that is what most people ignore. You can use a Wraith Flash with fury and decimator heavy in back seat and that is great on the spreadsheet, still it does not matter at all on the battlefield cause hardly anyone utilizes it to its full potential(and cause getting OHKed just isn't fun and that happens a lot on flahes). The starfall was stronger(before the nerf) but even that was barely enough to make the flash relevant during the time when it was still a new(and free) toy that everyone would try(and it would most likely have decreased even more with time). The forum was full of doomsayers but on the battlefield that had almost no real impact.
I played some MMO where it was said that a certain class was the strongest. It just had to perfectly perform with a priority list of like 10 spells with different cooldowns and all that while not moving(which hardly ever happened during fights). An other class had a straight rotation of 4 spells they could cast while moving and that was a bit weaker on spreadsheets. Guess which one usually performed better on live servers...unless some pro elite guild used it and just posted the best attempt of like 500.

A MAX with a shield can control the distance it wants to fight in...well, unless it is running far away from any building or obstacle(which would be stupid for any MAX to go there anyway). What do you want to do if that MAX stays at point A? There is NOTHING you can do to stop him from fighting at his preferred distance. Once he is at the point. And even on the way there he can use his shield and stop once in a while behind some obstacle etc. to recharge(most don't do that and most do not even utilize their shield at all...because they don't have to cause they are still way overpowered without it so eating a bullet here and there obviously does not matter to them).

The magrider has to always retreat to keep its perfect distance. The vanguard has to go upfront to get into perfect distance. Now whether you want to defend or attack a point...what is better? To be able to go for it or to always have to stay in "save" distance and retreat whenever the enemy comes closer? What is doing BOTH jobs better? And seriously, if I play an MBT then I do not envision to keep running from opponents....or that the MBT is more vulnerable due to size and low speed than a freaking harrasser(and we are not even talking about MBT A2G/G2A there. That is a whole different level of imbalance...not exactly in favor of VS). As a solo player I would ALWAYS choose the vanguard over a magrider...the magrider would only be my weapon of choice if it's 2/2 and I wanna play around with hill climbing and stunts...not if I mean serious business.

And the problem is that I adressed this, and each time you say I ignore the stats that I used to adress it. I dont ignore the stats, I dont cherry-pick the stats like you do, I use many more stats than KPU to explain what is happening. And you can also see that this is hapoening with the NC MAX being used in extremely specific scenario's while the TR and VS MAX have far more uses.

And again, I'll be waiting for the next time you start this charade again."but ya dont use them stats! No wait I'll ignore my own previous statement when next time you point out that you dont ignore the stats and once more try to say that you are wrong by cherry-picking stats and saying its simply not true!".

i meant no reload.
and i play plenty of VS thanks, i have a maxed out magrider, my favourite of the 3 MBTs,
a maxed out VS max (and i've repeatedly called for ZoE buffs)
phaseshift and lasher are in my top 10 weapons,
i play plenty of VS thanks.

you have infinite ammo and no reloads, and all you do is whine about NC maxes,
because unlike everyone else apparently you're unable to throw a brick of c4.

you seem to think nc maxes are invincible demigods, not playing enough NC maybe?

A battle/scout/sniper rifle user is only exposed once behind cover or cloak to deliver a good hit when they see a target that is worth damaging, like the Magrider or Vanguard who only need one shot to deal high damage then retreat or peek behind cover. A Prowler needs to land two shots, each interrupted by a short recoil time window and needing to aim again since the target has been alerted of a small chunk of damage and would start moving or look in the direction of incoming fire.

I have all 3 MBT with AP and halberds & sauron racer chassis setups and find having just one projectile helps to stay more stealthy, more mobile (shoot once, run), and more effective since if I would have missed the first shot, having an extra chance with lower damage is unlikely to land anyways, especially on rear flank (headshot-equivalent).

More bullets fired fast at 100 dmg at range means more visible bullet tracers, more incoming damage warnings, and more compensating for bullet travel velocities because more bullets need to be accounted for. The game is set up that way already, so that low dmg/high RoF are meant for close-range and high dmg/low RoF for longer ranges.

This too has been a topic of debate with no clear answer short of someone doing the full math with all variables plotted on graphs to compare and see the real picture, regarding if RoF interrupts (burst fire vs sustained fire), for the purpose of matching the engagement range with that particular weapon's handling characteristics to maximize its damage and accuracy, harms low dmg/high RoF or high dmg/low RoF profiles more.

In practice, I find the latter (the NC trait) be most effective, since burst firing matches the CoF bloom time, and repositioning of mostly-vertical recoil compensation as the target moves, while in close range one can leverage its high damage up close with body shots while holding trigger, or if needed also burst fire at the head where indeed every shot counts and every miss is more punishing.

NC infantry weapons have it all, controllable angular or mostly vertical recoil (even if high, one can compensate for it). TR weapons have more horizontal recoil that cannot be compensated for, or really bad random spread patterns as CoF bloom like all weapons do (TMG-50 as the best example of this, Carv-Butcher & Rhino are pretty bad too). TR also has many (carbines, assault rifles) really accurate and tight angular CoF on some weapons that lock the user in place (less ADAD spam) to compensate for it while holding the trigger down longer, which is also less effective against highly mobile targets because one would have to compensate 1. diagonal recoil 2. your own strafing 3. the target's movement on one or two dimensions. The game is set up this way, so ranged weapons have HVA and horizontal recoil, while close-range ones SPA with shorter magazines and often angular recoil on the high DPS ones.

TR has zero long range LMGs outside of the NS15 'clone', T32 Bull. The TMG-50 was supposed to be it, but it loses 2 damage profiles at range, down to 125@75m and HVA compared to 125@65m HVA/SPA NS15 or T32. The accuracy of Carv/Rhino/TMG are really poor.

NC: SAW 167@85M, controllable recoil in short bursts, HVA; GD22, 125@75m accurate with controllable angular recoil, Promise 143@10m/112@65m 687.5m/s SPRW tight CoF for sustained fire at 698 rpm.

VS has Ursa 143@75m HVA for range, very accurate on first few shots but poor bloom so long pauses between burst fire. VS also has unique LMGs like the Polaris, the Maw which resembles the Anchor, Pulsar LSW with somewhat controllable angular recoil, Orion/Betelgeuse with starting CoF that I believe are tighter and faster to re-center than the Carv/Butcher.

For the rest, NC has a proper long range carbine, AC-X11 which is like a mini-SAW, GF-7F at 845 RPM with controllable angular recoil rivaling LC2 Lynx which has 125 dmg up close (vs 143), 50m/s faster bullets, 64 RPM less, 10 rounds less per mag, and 0.3s slower short reload. Why does NC have something so close to one of the best of TR's, while TR LMG's have nothing resembling the Saw and equivalents.

NC weapon classes step into TR territory with ease, and overshadow even VS in terms of power: Gladius, Cyclone, Railjack, highly accurate carbines, Promise which rivals Naginata for accuracy with sustained fire, A-Tross with 30 round mag and 200/167@85m 469 rpm 2.1sec reloads.

I use all of these weapons listed (Reaper over Tross), the stats and other hidden weapon properties observable only in live are solid and dependable. VS stands somewhere in the middle on average, borrowing from both TR and NC somewhat, resulting in what I perceive to be somewhat bland weapon lineup and lower skill floor & ceiling: can't really control recoil as good as TR or NC since there's more RNG, there's sometimes very little vertical recoil to compensate for, and I still don't perceive VS weapons having more accuracy during movement or strafing than TR or NC. Fast reloads are nice but aren't that significant to warrant a 10 round mag penalty as TR guns, or lower damage profiles than NC ones which in effect store much more damage between reloads.

Mossie has the fastest base speed, bad air brakes, and I believe the fastest yaw speed (aim, and in a small way strafe-based movement to burst left or right of your target). It is supposed to get places faster, meaning catch up to enemies or escape deep behind cover after an attack. Nobody uses anything but hover stability airframes, meaning the meta of the game as the game is set up makes such alternatives inconsequential.

The Scythe retains airspeed while moving the most, but then revels its large top/bottom profile with the hole that's still easy to hit. It received a nerf to maelstrom's mag size because somehow the slowest ESF would be too effective at killing targets up close. This is like the nerf to magrider's VPC 'since it can reach places where infantry are,' as if using one's Empire Specific specialty properly is excessilve, meanwhile a Vanguard remains king of 1vs1 in close range and do what a MBT does, tank, just like soaking damage with a shield Max.

Reaver gets to augment the meta, hover stability, for bursting in any direction depending on horizontal direction with its strong afterburners that feed into hover power in hover mode faster than an ESF can max-pitch up in fighting range, and can in short bursts outrun a mossie due to the strongest afterburners.

I brought these up to illustrate how the meta, by way of how PVP games operate, means some faction traits (NC) work exceptionally, while alternative options (AI guns, airframes) what augment another faction's possible strengths either receive nerfs or have no viable role.

The devs, last I heard, have never even acknowledged the RoF with FPS issue, but I do think all high RoF guns are affected more than low RoF ones. I can see my NS11C even, a medium RoF gun, stutter at times and neglect to fire a shot.

I don't play infantry enough to comment on hand weapons, but I fly enough to state that the mossie is the best ESF in all roles - hands down. It's A2G banshee is the best A2G ESF nosegun by miles - and it's even viable in A2A, not great, but way better than the PPA or AH. In a Hover duel, its profile is the best because it's hard to hit from any angle whereas the scythe has larger top and bottom profiles, which becomes a factor even at a slight angle. The Reaver has only a higher DPS rotary going for it, but unless it lands 90% of its shots on the first burst, it's at a disadvantage in a hover duel because of its much lower mag. size.

No, I can not see that. There is no stat that would really prove it. There is just your opinion...and you call that a fact. That's all. Your extremely specific scenario is ALL CQC...so basicly 90% of what MAXES are used for in this game.

There is nothing that VS MAX could be used better for than the NC one. We neither have superior AA(how should we given that it is NS and you got the shield on top?) nor do you see a lot of comets or vortex(basicly lancer, just even worse). The difference is that there is something that the NC MAX is much better at and that is AI. But go ahead. I'm waiting for your stats and everyone who plays this game and reads this should ask himself when he sees or uses MAXes usually and when they have most impact on the game. You are all talks and twisting stats...