EEyup. I run Pandora on most of my classes. First thing I do when I see any enemy MAX is head towards it to give it a facefull of plasma.
So your issue should be with people rather than the MAX? A TR or VS MAX has a significantly larger killing potential over a longer range. People are scared because they can lemming the TR/VS MAX and maybe get away with it at close quarters where they probably won't get away with it against an NC. Due to the fact that the NC has to rely on CQC, you're more likely to get ambushed by them. When the VR room opens up. Roll an NC, stick uncerted Hacksaw on your arms and position yourself 20m away from a few of the bots. See how many you can kill in one mag load - if you can down one, I'll be impressed. Do the same with Dual Mercies or Cosmos, and if you can't down 5, I'll call you a noob.
Maxes don't bother me at all, as a LA C4 user, a max is a peice of cake to me, I get on the roofs, hover above them, drop a C4, sometimes I have to lure them out until they are standing on it, but 8/10 times I can easily kill a MAX user.
You say that as if the majority of my kills aren't infantry standing still shooting at me as an NC MAX - most of my kills are HA and less than 1 in 50 think to actually use their rocket launcher, even when they have the jump on me! It's why my slugs are actually effective. If you move, your chance of survival increases 5 fold.
I could turn the opposite around and say: Try and down 5 guys who walk into your generator/SCU/capture point in just a second with TR/VS... (assuming they ran in that fast) Also try and down a MAX in 1.5 seconds...
I've never been able to kill 5 guys in 1 load as an NC MAX with extended Hacksaw. Most is 3. Probably could down a MAX in 1.5 seconds though.
Actually, I have an alt. He has dual scattercannons which as you know have a tighter spread than hacksaws. I know the distances and differences. Also, in response to your other ones. I saw a dual hacksaw MAX literally whipe out a group of 10 people before my eyes. One moment they were there, next me and the MAX were the only ones in the room. A TR/VS MAX never could possible do that. I posted this thread a while ago, and since then my views have slightly changed and such.
Having 20 or so hours with a Hacksaw MAX, I can't even conceive a situation where I could kill 10 people in one ammo load unless they were all standing on virtually the one spot and allowed me to run up within 3 meters of them. Like I said, my best is 3 - I could see 4 being possible under the right circumstances but 10 is an impossibility unless there were other circumstances. I would have at least go the MAX's name if I saw something like that and I have seen a Dual Mercy MAX do just that circling the Crown (partially to get ready to report them for hacking), so...?
That probably wasn't a hacksaw MAX but a grinder MAX (with it's 14 rounds per Mag), Really unless you're fighting an enemy MAX the grinders are way better in my opinion (but then again, I pick the Nova over the Pandora as well) killing 10 infantry is feasable with grinders, but then it's been a lucky roll.. With hacksaws? Not with how people usually use those things However to continue on the point made, but with the 5 man situation Purg presented earlier: For a VS/TR MAX to be able to kill 5 infantry some of the following MUST be true: He must be in heavy cover and/or with an engineer, in addition to this his targets must not be in cover. Or if these are not true: His enemies must chose not to fire back at him, because if a TR/VS MAX engages infantry without cover, he will lose aprox 20-25% of his health if his enemy fires back. Now take the amount of time they have between you killing each of them, and you have a very dead MAX, even if you get the jump and kill the first guy without being spotted, the 4 others will turn around and shoot you, until you die... All that must be true for a NC to auto-win an engagement with 5 infantry is this: He must be able to reach CqC with them, if assaulting or defending a point/gen (you know, the only reason you actually need MAXes) then that can usually be achieved with a charge. Sure you can fail as a Scat MAX as well. However You stand a way better chance than the TR/VS MAX does at any range (where the odds aren't heavily in his favor). And as someone who has 42% of his time as a MAX, making infantry come to you indoors is not a hard task (they usually flee from tanks or want to assault or defend something after all ).. Getting to a position where they are exposed and somehow your massive body is also in cover? isn't.
I agree with Cryptek. NC MAXs get a lot of their OP reputation from the fact that lolpodders and HE rounds tend to chase infantry indoors, into the waiting shells of our MAXs. However, TR/VS don't have shotguns, and their planes and tanks do the same things as ours, meaning that the situation of NC effectiveness comes up a lot more than situations of TR/VS effectiveness. If the situations came up equally often NC MAXs would still be OP (instant TTK will NEVER be balanceable), but a lot less would cry so hard about it, because the TR/VS would do it just as effectively from a greater range.
Here's a typical Hacksaw MAX video. Played similarly to the way I would play mine. 3 kills in one load in a small room with nearby enemy. Used charge as a defensive mechanism when it was obvious that it would be a death trap. Couple of close ranged MAX kills played spectacularly bad by their VS pilots. Not a single tactical nade used, tank mines or C4 in choke points in the whole video in known NC MAX traffic areas. Bad, bad, bad.
I slug my non Hacksaw weapons, didn't like the pellet spread of the Grinders which require you to get even closer to kill your target and slug accuracy is impossible to control - so never opted for them. I will try them in the VR arena though. There's already a few of those videos in this forum of players using terrain outdoors to rack up killstreaks and 5 kills per mag at ranges that shotguns are ineffective. I'm not suggesting you can stand in the open, beat your chest while raining fire down on your foe. I'm suggesting that it's quite possible using smart play and tactics. You know, that thing that most people who play this game are unaware of. Which is pretty much a suicide mission. One brick of C4 or tank mine between the MAX and those infantry. One rocket. Sustained fire at a target that close. Please, trial a second Scattercannon, spec Charge and show me how to do it. I've never seen an NC MAX pull that off. 68% Being in known choke points while enemy get smarter on how to deal with NC MAX means being close enough to kill 1 or 2 enemy at that choke point while being far enough to not feel the effects of concussion, flash, vehicle nades, rockets or C4. They also (think that I don't have slugs) have the range advantage where they can stop 20m from me and out DPS me. I cover one entrance of a shield gen room, they have 4 others to choose from.
I have Trialed all the scatter cannon variants multiple times. (on different toons obviously, since I'm not gonna wait 30 days to do it again <_<) And let me tell you: Killing 5 guys as a scatterMAX where you shoot first, is way easier than killing 5 guys as a VS/TR where you shoot first. Also a thing about most the videos posted: People don't shoot back, second usually they're fighting solo targets, it's not hard to fight solo targets (especially ones that don't shoot back).. But there's a difference between killing straglers and having the raw power to change the outcome of a battle. Also don't try and make me laugh with sustained fire.. Rockets c4 and tank mines, sure that kills all MAXes, nothing special there.. But the NC MAX does not worry about sustained fire when it's in CqC, until it has to reload that is.
Of course they have to worry about sustained fire - a reload means death to whatever is left that I couldn't kill in the room, being able to sustain fire can clear more enemies or *can* cause those enemies to disengage giving you a potentially higher survival rate. You've run with Scatters, you're one of the few that's holding a pitchfork that understands the small mag count and the long reload that NC MAX endure. Most just get killed by an NC MAX and race to the forums to tell us how OP it is, not having any concern that I spend more time reloading than I do firing. 2 infantry can kill me in the time it takes to reload.. and if one of them is wielding a Lasher. I melt. Since most NC MAX won't slug they have no choice but to engage in CQC where tank mine traps and C4 are a lot more likely than a TR or VS MAX that can engage mid range. NC MAX wants to kill something, it has to get close to it making explosives and tactical nades a more viable option. Any NC ambush can be instantly nullified by a concussion grenade - something I'm starting to see more of. Ultimately, we'll never see eye to eye. Appears you want my weapon while I want yours. If I didn't play with a Platoon of guys I've been playing with for years, I'd be rocking a Dual Mercy MAX. Since I've bought weapons on two NC on two different servers, if I get credit for the doubling up, I'll end up spending it on a Dual Mercy on another server in the US during their peak time for when I'm home during the day.
I'm just saying that If I can walk through 3-4 infantry with my 7/9 or 7/7 ammo setup.. How does having 12/12 or 14/14 make walking through 5 less feasible? (also I was never talking about slug grinders or anything, I was talking just regular grinders) The thing with VS/TR being able to engage at medium range is this: You can, but usually you won't want to, because you can only engage enemies at medium range who are out of cover, if they are out of cover then chances are you are out of cover as well. You don't survive more than 1 or 2 people shooting at you in medium range, you just don't. Second I usually find myself in CqC a whole lot more than at medium range, considering everything important is indoors. However that's why I'd like to draw attention to what my most recent suggestion to change the NC MAX was: Drastically reduce it's refire rate (making it incapable of insta-gibbing MAXes, meaning TR/VS can actually push into a NC MAXes if they have engineers behind them (they'll still lose a 1v1 in CqC). To compensate and make them more like the other MAX weapons (suppression/sustain weapons), you give them bigger mags (we're talking like 20 shots for a unupgraded grinder, 15 shots for the rest). If the hacksaw was to retain a high rate of fire, the damage should be brought down (just like the Nebula and onslaught do less damage for more fire rate) Not only would your ammo last longer because you shoot slower, it would also last longer because there's more of it. But more importantly: Extended magazine will not be a damage upgrade in the same way as it is now. In addition to that I'd like to see some fundamental changes to the MAXes weapons. (these however are a bit more ambitious) More firerate and bigger mags for the TR (those things shoot like a 1800's hand cranked Gatling gun, the new SMG has more RPM than two heavy cycler combined. (you'd need less damage ofc) They don't look or sound satisfying in my opinion :-/ Bring back different firing modes for NC so they can shift to a tighter spread (in PS2 it would probably be the ability to change between normal shotgun damage and less damage but tighter spread like the jackhammer) Bring back VS's signature ability: The ability to change between anti infantry and armor piercing rounds. If possibly make them into lashers, everyone wants it..
Around 5, if you always hit and only double tap. Maxes don't run that risk, you know they are worth an entire mag, and every shot will hit. Potentially even at slightly higher ranges. I wouldn't be opposed to having a flat 10% damage reduction on shotguns against MAX suits. (Or flat damage reductions for Maxes)
