Explain? Because the only way an NC MAX loses in anything remotely close to a 1v1 at close range is when they're reloading. If they can absorb even half their healths worth of damage while they're reloading they will win pretty much 100% of the time.
If you'd read my 2nd post in the thread you'd see that I had altered my position. I just couldn't go back and edit due to timer. When viewed in the entirety of the game. Considering all characters that pull shotgun MAXes. The only time that the show any substantial increase in overall success (score/survival) is with the Grinder. What this means is that the low magazine on the other three seems perfectly tuned. Extreme close range efficacy balanced with absolute jank performance outside of 10-15m. Why those two extra shots pump the Grinder up by so much just means that the balance on the others are so close to the edge that there's no better they could be. In regards to how many players pull the MAXes, those numbers are in the linked sheet. I regretted not folding them in but they're there to check out. The Mattock and Mutilator offhand usage is <100/hr so I don't like those numbers as much but, if anything, it's just making those weapons already viewed with scorn seem even worse. Something else that is interesting is that the general assumption that players use each weapon in pairs is not the case. The pull counts seem to indicate that a wide number of users split their types (probably 1 custom, 1 stock but that's a guess). The numbers are interesting in that, outside of the one case (which could be bogus, all things considered), all MAX performance seems to be equal between empire. The stats are taken way, way out of context so can't really be used to ask for balance changes. Starting discussions/investigations, sure, but no more than that. As it stands, I feel pretty good about 11 of the 12 weapons and think the Grinder alone needs a look. Looking at just the 3 stock main hand weapons, all empires pull >4000/hr. Since everyone has to pull a main hand, the offhands (lower number for non-stock, higher number for stock) can be ignored in the totals. Using that as a base, NC 8679, TR 9881, VS 8595. That includes AV and AA. The huge TR spike seems to be from 1500 more Fracs per hour than the other new AV which the small number of Pounders doesn't pull down. AI alone - NC 5742, TR 6424, VS 6226. I do know that people pull Fracs for AI and that skews the numbers but, if you look at the performance versus even the worst stock AI and you'll see that anyone who does is doing their empire a disservice. Infantry kills/hr and Deaths/hr KD comes out to a dismal 0.92. The rest of the AV are just slightly <1 Infantry KD and all about the same in vehicle kills/hr. The Vortex has a worse IKD and higher VKH than the rest but not way out of line. One thing I do find pleasing is that MAXes are the highest scoring class per hour in game. Rounded averages MAX 13k, Engi 10k, Med 10k, HA 9k, LA 8.5k, Infil 7k. It all pretty much makes sense. MAXes are death machines, Eng/Med get support xp as a bonus, HA live longer than LA (compare LMG K/D gap to Carbine) and Infils.. well.. a lot sit around waiting on perfect shots and missing.
I don't think any balancing is in order or required.... however this SHOULD silence the NC crying that their shotguns aren't as good as the VS/TR AI guns I know, fat chance of that... but I will be posting this link as a response to future complaints
I am not concerned about NC MAXs in 1v1. They are still the champs at 1v1 even after the nerfs what they are lacking at is handling multiple enemies in the room for which the other factions AI MAX are better at but I have no problems with it being this way. That is the downside to NC MAX. When there are 5 of you in a room and some of them flee that only helps the NC MAX finish of the 3 that stay, just something to think about I am not saying the shield is bad, it is good. But saying it will make us godly I think is an overstatement, especially when an anchored TR MAX will chew threw it in a matter of seconds.
So basically, you want this: NC MAX to be on completely equal ground with TR/VS at close range, but remain completely and utterly outclassed in every single way passed 10m? Mathematically the TR/VS can can kill multiple infantry faster. Their TTK is actually lower than an NC MAX. Essentially, the only advantage is the first infantry kill. Everything after that is actually in favor of TR/VS. More damage/clip, more sustained fire, more situations they can control. How is that balanced? During infantry combat I end up fighting VS/TR MAX in situations that an NC MAX can't do a single thing in, minus colossal RNG slugs.
These numbers account for kills made at any range. On the whole of the game, all MAX AI weapons barring the Grinder, appear to be equally effective over the course of play. NC pay outdoors for their strength indoors. Please read more than the first post. Eh.. unless you've got some footage of a TR chewing a NC MAX shield, I'm not sure it's going to play out like that. From the looks of it, the shield will be a free gap closer to put scats in prime territory whereas the anchors will be better for flak and AV. I have little faith in AI lockdown as you'll either be a sitting duck in the open or infantry will just lob grenades and popshot rockets at your conveniently placed frame. Both have their place, don't think I'm saying they don't, but I think any meaningful interaction between them will be rare.
NC don't use their AI MAX at all outside of instances like tower fights or Bio Labs; TR/VS can and do. Those numbers do not represent NC, VS, and TR all using their MAX in the same situations. It is like comparing shotgun score/hour and carbine score/hour. Both are used in CQC combat, and both are effective. However, shotguns are more effective at CQC and carbines can be used even at medium range. But statistically, shotguns have a much higher score/hour than carbines. Same case with NC and VS/TR MAX. ------------- As a final remark: You say that NC pay for their strength indoors by weakness outdoors, and yet you ask the NC to be nerfed so that they perform similarly overall to TR and VS. Do you not understand why this is not balance? NC perform better score/hour because they only use their MAX in situations where ALL MAXES regardless of faction, are extremely effective and generate high score/hour.
BUT.. few people ENGAGE NC MAXes up close which means they are free to live and cause more carnage for longer, and if they have armour regen can hide for a bit in a position where they can instakill anyone who pops into sight. At first glance I doubted these figures, as a TR MAX I have little difficulty dispatching VS MAXes, but it's kills overall and it is highly possible that the VS MAXes kill squishies slightly better. To my mind that makes their slightly better K/D ratio and scores more balanced next to TR.
NC MAX vs TR Anchor (both using AI) in a direct battle will always lose, mathematically. Currently, NC MAX can only win if they are up close and use extended mags on both shotguns (although they will always win if this is the case, but barely). This is because if you miss shots or don't have extended mags, you have to reload both arms, which takes 4s. Conversely, TR MAX has enough ammo even if they miss some shots they can still kill without reloading. TR has a slightly longer TTK than NC MAX, meaning if the NC has to reload, they will always lose. When you factor in the Anchor, the DPS of the TR MAX is FAR larger than that of the NC MAX. Meaning, in the time that the NCMAX takes to fire off both arms, they will already be dead. In addition, the NC MAX can't fight from a range or use hit/run. They have to get close. When you get close, it comes down to DPS. When it comes down to DPS, Anchor TR MAX > NC AI MAX in a direct battle. ------------- If the NC uses the Aegis Shield, it gives time for the TR MAX to lockdown and guarantee a win. The only way for an NC MAX to win is to get the jump on the TR MAX. Meaning, Aegis Shield doesn't help while charge does. The only time when Aegis will help vs TR MAX is if the NC max (somehow) gets close and unloads both arms, then reloads while in the cover of the shield.
? wtf u saying? When TR max anchored NC max uses his aegis shield. Its most powerfull shield in the game with biggest regenerate ever. U became to him at 5 m. TR max reload and u use scatts. He is dead. THIS IS MATH??????? WTF? its about tactic. . . and for some reasons when u fight with TR max who dont have 180° cover he dont use anchor.
Reading my entire post will save you from your confusion. As I said above, NC MAX can barely kill a TR MAX faster normally. Therefore, in a direct battle, an Anchored TR MAX will have significantly more DPS, and therefore always kill faster. It's simple. And yes I used math to come to that conclusion. If the NC MAX uses the shield, the TR MAX (who knows this) will just use Anchor and guarantee a win. Like I said, the only way an NC MAX will be able to beat a TR MAX with Anchor is if he gets the jump on him.
This is hopefully where teamwork will come into play and the HA's will decide to use their decimators on the anchored target while it is distracted by the Shielded MAX walking towards them. I guess we will have to wait and see how this plays out. I just hope I can do some customization stuff on the shield in the future.
I lose most of my fights due to LA's crapping C4 on my head. With the increase in sound from an LA jetpack, I'll instinctively charge if I'm not aware of any friendly LA's near my position. While I'll probably cert the shield, it won't be for CQC shotgun work unless I'm being asked to spearhead a push out of a teleporter or similar. Charge is more valuable to an NC MAX.
Honestly I think we need to see the impact, of the ES special abilities before changes are considered, since the weapons aren't so far out of line that it hits the overall win/loss ratio across continents. (doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at but we can afford to wait). I have noticed in recent patches to be doing terrible with TR weapons. I can't shake off that there is a bug either with COF, or hit reg. since sometimes I can go through half an extended clip, with my mercies at a target in midrange, without getting a single hitreg. But ofcourse that might be just me, I still hold to the excuse its faulty net code. =P
I don't even bother with shotguns even in biolabs, they do great damage, but are too limited for me. Ravens can deal excellently with just about any situation indoors and out except Air, though I've got a rocketpodder a time or two with them. Really wish they had never messed with Falcons, those were the best! Still good if your on a buggy. I cant recall in recent memory losing a duel with an enemy Max unless his friends are helping. HA's and LA's way more of a threat.
Math is great for head to head charges but I would see, in this case, the shield more like how I use the HA buffer. It's just there to help me get from cover to cover so I can better control range. It's good to know that a NC Aegis can't just walk straight into TR Lock and laugh it off. The good players will learn to not do that quickly and make use of the shield in other ways. So, basically, it sounds balanced. NC will use it as temporary cover. TR will try to grind it down but, if they're smart, they'll pull up stakes and reposition before they lose range advantage. More thought involved than tricking the NC into blowing charge first. I'm a fan and think it'll work out well for all involved.
So... NC MAX is balanced because most people are too wimpy to take it on, even when they can win a straight fight at any range with KA5? NC MAX is like that really sick kid you went to school with who wasn't allowed to play outside like all the other kids.
At long range the time to kill and objects to hide behind make TR guns useless, if you try to engage an NC max on the open he will have plenty of time to walk to the nearest cap point inside a building to get repaired then rip you appart if you enter and try to defend the point. I prefer to be LA with my trac5 with foward grip than my mercy max. It's much easier to kill and I can move quicker. Maxes are intended for indoors and there NC is just milles ahead. From WoW good old times design: "If something does a lot of damage in a quick burst, there must be a long window in which that deals no such damage" "If something does a little damage but sustained, it must do a bit more damage to compensate for the fact that burst damage is too convenient in pvp" How it should have translated into PS2: "NC maxes have the convenient thing of instantkilling infantry without giving them a chance to retailate and damage the max, therefore there should be a wide window between shots" "TR maxes have chainguns that do sustained damage, and in line with it's infantry main characteristics, they should have the biggest damage per second but in continuous mode" How it really is: Just lol.
