[Suggestion] AA/Flak should be stronger and shorter ranged

I'm not relating A2G weapons with AA, they're separate changes. Removal of A2G weapons would make the relationship more healthy regardless of the status of AA.

The reason I think they shouldn't have strong A2G specific weapons is that vehicles in the open have no defense, and its just frustrating for the driver and free essentially unearned points for the pilot.
Infantry have more ways to defend themselves, but I think rocket pods are still too strong.

If ESF's were to have A2G I think it should be significantly nerfed/more manageable.

A part of the thing with the flight ceiling has to do with technical limitations, or so I've read before. Same goes for the low speed; faster aircraft = netcode issues. I'm not really sure where you're coming from on flak being too oppressive, though. Do you fly libs? They're great, but so are swarms of light fighters. Both have different tactical purposes. Taking out ESF A2G adds nothing to the game, beyond making individual players feel better about not having something they can retaliate with.

Word to individual players: small arms fire IS effective against ESF's. If you have 10 people running next to you, those 10 people can get an ESF to disengage with concentrated fire. If the ESF is out of range, it takes 1 person switching to AA to run it off, 3 people switching to kill it outright. The AA rocket launcher is what, 250 certs? You can afford it.

Maybe the problem is that vehicles in the open think that they should be safe. Always come prepared, that's what I always say. If you don't have the tool, make friends that do, or at least stay near a stranger that does.

Aircraft A2G is not particularly strong, except for AI noseguns against infantry and maybe hornets (I lack experience both as a target and user of that weapon). The rocketpods have been nerfed many, many times. It takes a lot of time to kill one vehicle, way more time than it take to be driven off by AA.

I run G30 Walker or G40 Ranger on my Magrider when I am on Esamir or Indar in a battle under 24-48 or when enemy Air is heavy.

With the exception of Lightning, all ground vehicles can equip an AA gun (even a Kobalt can deter Air).

You can also pilot your ground vehicle as a Heavy with Lock On launcher.

In my little tanking experience I quickly learned that if you have an AA gun and someone else has an Aphelion or a Vulcan they will make quick work of you, I guess it's just a choice that has to be made.

Yeah, it's a sucky trade off but load out choice adds flavor to the game. Otherwise, I'd be hauling my Aphelion or Saron secondary (or Fury for Sunderer) and I bet there would be so many MBTs OP threads.

I do fly libs.

TBH most of the reason I mention nerfing/removing A2G weapons is because people complain about it a lot and I can't find any evidence against it, and it kinda makes sense, why should a fighter pilots primary goal be killing infantry while A2A battles are happening around him?
I do find it frustrating when i'm in a tank and get ganked by an ESF that I can't defend myself against, even when near my team, and I hate seeing bad pilots get more points than me just off farming infantry.

The main part of AA I don't like (is its range but I understand why that can't change) is how non-interactive it is. It needs more depth.
I still believe that pilots in an A2A battle should be mostly left alone, while pilots who are slow moving/farming should be in danger, and should be possible to dodge a good amount of damage.

Because the lib is inaccessible to most players because of its crewed nature. Most players do not use it because they do not have the will or the capacity to get any good with it. It can be really hard to find a good gunner/pilot unless you build a friend's list or outfit around having those kind of people available. This is honestly one of the biggest problems with the airgame in general; it is not easy to find other pilots and gunners to play with, unless you join an outfit specifically dedicated to playing air.

Tanks need a hard counter. Their advantage is that they are highly armored (meaning they can sustain fire), immobile (which means they can hide and repair, or just repair while under fire) and can project a lot of force through mass or terrain. If conditions are favorable, good tank columns are practically unassailable through ground assault, except through far higher numbers. Air evens this out by being mobile; it can negate the advantage of terrain and mass through flanking. This can still easily be deterred with AA cover, but everyone who is on AA is not using an AV or AI weapon. Furthermore, if you can find out where the AA is, you can use things like valkyries and galaxies to do a targeted infantry/MAX assault, using A2G to keep the AA off of the transports. The thing is, with good positioning, AA can become practically unassailable by ground forces and air or aerial assault (see Indar, SE WG, SW mesas), except through far greater numbers. Because air is occasionally the only real counter to good positioning, few non-pilots really realize how powerful AA really is.

Air has to be able to kill AA. It HAS to. If it can't, well positioned AA pretty much can only be outmaneuvered or ignored, which is strategically HUGELY OP. The trade off for this is that AA HAS to be able to target distant air; if air can counter AA, AA NEEDS an advantage against air, that advantage being range and accuracy (negates advantage of mobility). If played well, this is to the good pilot's advantage; friendly AA cover means that he can project force into hostile territory more safely; A2A combat negates the mobility advantage both aircraft have, meaning skill and loadout (and weapon balance, by extension) determines who will win the duel. Technically, this means an ace is unbeatable in 1v1 and a group of aces unbeatable against other groups; as air has the highest mobility which means A2A victory is determined purely by skill and/or coordination, aces can choose whatever fight they want and kill their target.

Unless there is an AA presence, that is. No matter how skilled an ace, he can't totally avoid AA damage except by disengaging with the enemy. This allows less skilled pilots to, at the very least, keep more skilled pilots busy, or at best use friendly AA to even the advantage. The problem is that air and AA do not work in synch in most occasions; most pilots are mostly unaware where friendly AA cover is and most AA is unaware where friendly air is engaging enemy air. This ***** with the whole mechanic and basically put flying aces at the absolute top of the food chain, and leaves AA with nothing to do for most of the time.

The problem isn't the balance between air and AA, the problem is that this is a combined arms game where the majority of people are not combining their arms. Until that problem has been solved, balance issues cannot be determined.

This, by the way, is what leads to the attitude of 'skyknights'. Air is considered the most elite game because it has totally unique flight mechanics (being good at air in other games is only marginally to your advantage in this one), is the most difficult to aim with (moving and aiming is hard, ESPECIALLY in 3D, which is ALWAYS what you are doing in a duel), confers very little advantage on terrain (while good pilots can use terrain to their advantage, the best pilots do not have to), and typically 1v1 encounters (it is you vs your opponent; the more skilled will usually win). You have to go FAR out of your way to get fights like that in other parts of the game. Air is the hardest part to get good at, because you will usually face more skilled opponents than you. You get good by dying a lot. When you stop dying, people think you're immortal.

Then they start complaining that theyre too lazy to get good and we get tomcats and coyotes to the face


Tanks do need a hard counter, but I think libs should be that counter, not ESF's, but like you said its hard to find a gunner.

Libs are too easy to focus fire on in an air wing. If libs are the only thing that can hurt the ground, AA can just focus fire on the libs. What does the cloud of reavers flying for support do now?

I guess most people who complain about AA are not expierenced as pilot.
I dont know how often i get fcked up as newbiepilot by flak or lock ons. The Learncurve is already very high for noob-pilots.
To be honest. Starting flying is Pain in the Azz until u know how to fly.

If u know how to fly then u also know how to deter air with Flak and rockets.
For example the Skyguard. The enemy Esf-Pilot think you are just a normal anti-tank Lightning.
Wait until he is close enough and engage him at the right moment. U will kill him if no cover is available.
If cover is avaible and u cant kill him then but u can force him to retreat.

I cant understand why people complain about flak. I farm air with my Skyguard ,burstermax and even with a 10 million hp phalanxturret.

Be tricky as the ESF-Pilot and you can kill him.
I say it again : For all people who always complain about AA get in an ESF and AA will feel op if u are a newbie-pilot.

But i guess most people just want klick´n kill.

The only thing that should be changed with AA Weapons is the angle of which the vehicle-based AA Can Aim up.
In case you haven't noticed, there is a sort of 'blind spot' for the Walker, Ranger, Skyguard, and Whatever the AA Turret is called. Meaning if that ESF or Lib is in just the right spot, and high enough to render, there ain't jack you can do about it, because if oyu shoot in that direction you will end up missing your shots anyway, flak or no flak.

Instead of a full 180 degrees above them, Vehicle-Based AA Feels like it only has a 160 degree arc above. If needed, I can draw up a crude diagram to better illustrate.

Oh, and for good measure.

You made me fall out of my chair, sir. I needed that laugh.
Oh wait, you're serious?
Then let me laugh even Harder.


As long as there's been things flying around (in air, space, what have you) There will always be a sort of gun to shoot at them, usually a bigger gun. These Guns don't give a flying duck if you're going against another ace, they'll shoot at you anyway. If they're on YOUR Side, they'll shoot at your opponent.

It is the Natural Law of Dogfighting: Flak You.
And this is coming from not a Sky Knight, but a Sky Guard.
At least, that's what I'd call my defensive air-style.

what

My point was that we should have somewhere that's safe from flak like a higher flight ceiling, not that flak should be removed.

Isn't aa focusing on Libs exactly what we want, the reavers can either work together to kill the flak if there are no allied tanks around, or they can just hunt down enemy libs/galaxies to help attack the base.

Then you'd need to buff the durability of libs to better withstand focused AA. The problem is that, in 1v1, libs don't need to be buffed. If ESF's can't target ground effectively, then the AA can deal with them last without any risk to themselves. Giving them different load outs mean you have to treat ESF's cautiously - you cannot afford to completely ignore them when you're playing AA.

Every time I think through these things it always comes back to "you need to work with your team." Which kinda sucks.

That's exactly my point. The problem with this game is that the communications and teamwork interfaces are insufficient to coordinate the average player. If they could improve on ways to coordinate the solo player into working with squads and platoons, then balance could finally be properly discussed. The problem with balance isn't only weapon vs weapon, but with scaling. An air wing is effective. An air wing working with AA is highly effective. An air wing working with AA and covering infantry drops is nearly unstoppable. These elements cannot be considered in 1v1 situations, but as pieces of a larger game. In some places, this set up works correctly. For the most part, there just simply are not groups that are large and organized to do combined arms ops like that.

Yes, a very big disagreement.
In a game world where every weapon can be used effectively solo, why would you introduce even one weapon that requires teamwork? In fact, why force an entire dedicated weapons arsenal (ground AA) to require teamwork?
Add insult to injury, why force this against the most lone wolf vehicle in the game? Why would a vehicle that is rarely used in teamwork outside of A2A gank squads require teamwork to take down? Why isn't a single dedicated ground weapon in the game capable of going up against them solo and actually achieve something? And note there: "deterrence" isn't achieving anything. At best you give them a shorter window to attack, at worst they'll just move to another base and farm there.

ESF shoulnd't deserve to live if only one AA source was targeting him. Because if one ESF deserves to live under those conditions, so should all other vehicles. Every ground vehicle that is attacked by a single aircraft with any loadout would deserve to live as well! See how that one works out.

Well it's not the pilots fault, but it isn't the ground's fault either. With weapons so hideously build as the AA weapons, which require more skill and teamwork to fight off a single aircraft, it's a small wonder that AA isn't used much against them. Considering the incredible power sacrifice against everything else when you take an AA weapon you can't even blame anyone on the ground to pick one preemptively, you only weaken yourself most of the time.
Add insult to injury, most vehicles and classes do not even have proper AA. Only the HA and MAX have anything remotely useable against aircraft, and then you have the Skyguard... Some combinations, such as the Sunderer with dual Walkers might be effective at keeping them away but they aren't in any way effective at destroying anything but a foolish pilot who doesn't look at his health.

That's like saying "the only thing it takes to instagib any infantry in the game is a bolt-action headshot". Just because it can doesn't mean it happens or is even easy to pull off. Considering all the bugs and problems that plague lock-ons it's all to easy even for a team of 4 or 5 Lock-ons to fail at a OHK on an ESF, add the fact that any aircraft can start a dive as the lock on starts to form to have every lock on suicide into the ground and the misery is complete.

Yeah that's easy. First off that ESF is hovering because he's uncontested. Second off most ESF would notice if 3 MAX's or 3 Skyguards step out and start coordinating, mostly because a hovering ESF will be targeting close to the area's where both will spawn.

Actually not that hard. 95% of the AA used by infantry will be close or on top of the spawnbunker. The AA used by vehicles (read: Skyguard) will be at the back of the frontline. Since I assume you'll know where that frontline is (even from the warpgate you can see it on the map), you'll know where the usual spots for AA is.
Also, having 3 AA sources you already are looking up that magical incline of the AA powercurve where the power starts getting way out of hand.

They usually do once they notice (immidiately) that there's more than 1 AA source. Then they scamper off to repair and... nuke people somewhere else. Congratulations! All that teamwork against 3 solo vehicles just to have them move to another area and maul people there! That's no way to play a game, not for the aircraft players nor for the AA players, not to mention the players getting ripped to shreds by the aircraft.

Yes, teamwork should be encouraged, heavily encouraged. But it shouldn't be forced anywhere. A solo AA should be able to be effective and fun, a solo aircraft should be effective and fun. When anything attacks anything else, there should be a way to deal with it. Teamwork (as in: deliberate coordinated play where each player performs a function to make a tactic work) should only increase the power of your way to deal with it. And it shouldn't be 1+1=2 power like we see in Zergs where it's just more guns pointed in the same direction, it should be 1+1=3 or even 4 or 5 if the teamwork and tactics are powerful enough! Yes, 2 people should totally be able to maul 5 people who have banded together but aren't playing together.

The point is not exactly their strength, it's their use.
Tanks are sturdy and fast compared to infantry. An AV weapon might have long reloads and not be the easiest to kill infantry with, but they make sure the tank can survive battles against foes that they cannot outrun, IE most other vehicles in the game. Also a tank can take it's time. If it gets damaged it can easily pop behind some cover far enough away to fully repair before infantry reaches it, and then come back to try and kill again.
AI weapons on tanks do not offer that. They might be good at infantry killing, but they are terrible at anything else. You are very likely to die to other vehicles due to this difference in power, while you will still be able to avoid infantry just as easily, or kill them somewhat faster and easier than with AV weapons.
That's why AI weapons need to get extra's. For instance the capability to flashbang, concuss or EMP an enemy vehicle to mess with their vision, aiming capabilities, movement and possibly their abilities (not all at the same time of course). Some of these weapons could also offer increased damage to all weapons that hit the target. That gives them more use, both in 1v1 tank gameplay as well as in teamplay where people want a few AI weapons in their tank column to help defeat enemy vehicles.

I think there are more ways, and all of them need to be used.
First off is making coordination easier.
Second is making coordination worth it. We have only a few real teamplay elements that are worth it that are actually used in normal gameplay: Pocket engineers, infiltrator scan equipment and maybe medics. Synergy would be a key factor here. Each infantry player (not necessarily class) offers something to the group. Scan equipment, vision-obscuring smoke (needs updates) and other vision obscuring items, things to deal extra damage to other players, ways to protect friendlies from damage, buffs to stats like speed, mobility and health, nerfs to enemy stats etc etc.
In PS2 we see far to little of these things, and most of what we have is underwhelming in most cases. That's why Zergs run supreme rather than coordinated teamplay. There have been times where coordinated outfits were able to handle Zergs (My outfit has done some ops, the best of them we could use one and a half squad to hold off 96+ people for 10 minutes, but it required such intensive teamwork, coordination and training in advance to pull off that it's mind-boggling. And even then the only reason it succeeded was because of the Zergs KD greed and unwillingness to die first, meaning they attacked in small bite-size chunks rather than overwhelming us as they could. Theoretically they could have ran up to our group (including NC shotgun MAX's) and knifed us all to death no matter what we did...

Well, some of it anyway, my way of debate can be pretty aggressive.
Anyway, I had envisioned holding Q over an enemy to have a radial menu pop up. There's no shame in making use of this cost a little bit more time and effort. The menu offers an air request, vehicle request or infantry request on that specific target. After use it goes on a 5 minute cooldown. 4 minutes is detracted from the cooldown if your targeted mark is killed, encouraging targeting important targets rather than spamming it around.
Players of the type requested and within 1000m (500m for infantry) get a waypoint arrow designating the target even as it moves. This makes it also a perfect way for aircraft to designate and attack another aircraft as a team. This mark becomes invisible the moment the spot is lost, but reappears if the target is spotted again.
Then there's a V radial menu. Hold V to designate an entire area. This simply as a 3 minute cooldown. You can designate an area to contain AA, Infantry AV, vehicles, aircraft or just general infantry.