A2A lock ons are still overpowered.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Jawarisin, Feb 22, 2015.

  1. MahouFairy

    I don't know how you even managed to let the enemy fire his A2A missile. If you get caught by surprise, getting hit by 1 missile should be reasonable as well (do lock ons even have an element of surprise anyway?). What do you do next? Run? Then you are as good as dead, whether the enemy is using a nosegun or coyote or lock ons. You accelerate to the position of the enemy ESF and dogfight it. These things are obsolete technology ( no helmet mounted sight) and take an eternity to lock, meaning it is useless in a dogfight. If they are pointing that thing at you and trying to get a lock on you even in a dogfight, be glad, because it means he isn't firing his nosegun at you.
    • Up x 1
  2. Demigan

    First off, Higby couldn't have influenced it alone. His entire team, and especially the one's coding it, would have had a say in the matter. I posted something more detailed in the link about TR having been mistreated under Higbies rule but it counts here as well:

    What I'm against is the idea that Lock-ons are OP.

    The idea's for new Flares sound like fun, but I think the lock-ons themselves need looking at, all lock ons. Ground lock ons, air lock ons, and preferably AA as well. All these weapons specifically have skill-lowering effects of either "look at target and fire" or "fire near target, shell explodes". This isn't fun for either party, as it means that the weapon needs to be carefully calibrated to not be OP. There's no way to be powerful as hell and instagib an aircraft, and there's no way an aircraft can be in the neighbourhood of even 1 ground AA unit without being damaged no matter how well he flies.
    It would be awesome if both the following instances can happen:
    1: A single AA unit annihilates an aircraft before he can escape
    2: One ESF flies across 15 AA units and manages to evade all fire, escaping without a single bit of damage.

    As for your response to ColonelChingles, I think that's rather unfair. He brings up a fair point: if you get killed by something while you could have the option to take something against it, but you chose something else because it was better, then you shouldn't complain. You could have used flares, you took fire suppression. Why did you take the Fire supression? You could have picked the anti-lock-on flares that as some say "suck the life out of the airgame". It's not as if aircraft FIre supression has it's advantages in having about double the health regenerated compared to ground units (even the Flash doesn't get extra health for fire suppression!)

    How about this comparison:
    MBT's can take a proximity radar to protect themselves against C4 fairies and infantry-ambushes. Yet mostly they take the ES MBT abilities (even Prowlers who always complain about it). Just look at the forums, every now and then someone makes an anti-C4 post and there's half of PS2 that instantly jumps in and says it needs to be nerfed, but none will take the already available options to counter the very thing they complain about.
    Sounds perfectly to this situation. ESF can take flares, designed perfectly to counter lock-ons. But they refuse to do so but like to complain about it without cease whenever someone makes a thread about it.

    I think the biggest problem here is fun. People don't like any type of dedicated AA in ground or air, no matter how gimped it actually is (although if we increased the damage slightly they would suddenly be OP, they are exactly on the line and there is little middle ground with current mechanics). The mechanic behind it makes it no fun for the users and the one's on the receiving end. By changing it, by allowing it to wield more power but require more skill at the same time, you can both balance it while still allowing it to be fun. More risk/reward.
    • Up x 2
  3. \m/SLAYER\m/


    most pilots must know how OP their ESFs. with lock-ons you will not become an "sky-god", a2a rockets for low-skilled players, who cant shoot entire magazine into enemy ESF - so they using it as "boost". if you advanced pilot - you will notice lock-on alert, so you can react.
    now if you tired of lock-ons you can use Flares, it stacks well with auto-repair.
    • Up x 2
  4. Demigan

    This happens the opposite just as much. They fire one missile, fire some of their nosecannons and fire another missile to finish it off.
    Even then, look at the amount of usage! There's only 3 nosecannons that are less used, most have at least 4x the usage, if not 8 to 9 times the usage. Seriously, with 383 users over 3 factions over a month I don't think it's that much of a deal. If you even check the ESF death percentages, A2A lock ons don't even show up, they are that small a group. But somehow people find it a big enough problem to complain about? Somehow they are so OP, but no one uses them?
    It's the first rule in gaming: if something is OP, everyone will use it. Thats why there's more Harassers pulled on the TR, they don't hold back just because it's OP and can annihilate multiple tanks with little damage.

    ... What?

    How many pro people are using a pistol because "LMG's are OP"? That's a teeny tiny handful of people, and they are mostly jump to Infiltrators because they can stealth around while using pistols. No one is going to pick an infiltrator and not use it's stealth ability, so they are at their weakest (with less health), don't have the advantage of their stealth and are completely skillful with a pistol to overpower their enemies.

    Secondly, Top Pilots are a small group, it's not like 99% of the flyboys are top guns. Over a month we got thousands of ESF taking to the sky, and we got 383 users of this weapon over a month...
    11.389 unique weapons used on ESF over a month, that's not completely fair as primary and secondary weapons are added up next to eachother. But only 383 of those are lock-ons. You don't tell me that the top players and the average and the low skilled players all at the same time decide not to use lock-ons because they are supposedly OP? Is that really it? In a gaming world where people will exploit almost anything to get the slightest advantage, with so far not a single aspect of PS2 being an exception to that rule, but somehow we got honerable flyboys? It's the weakest excuse out there.
    Oh, and just look at Banshee's. They were OP, and they were abused like hell. But nooooo, flyboys are all honerable ofcourse!
    And the Liberator crews that had that massive large shell that can easily hit aircraft and OHK them, no one abused that did they? Oh no, There weren't enough Liberators around to prevent ESF from going anywhere with a Lib around. No, definitely no abusers in the sky!
    • Up x 3
  5. Cz4rMike

    You're analyzing the stats wrong.

    1) Playtime with Lock-Ons will always be LOW. Why? Because you don't fly with lock-ons selected. You only switch to them before locking on, then fire, switch back to nosegun. After the kill you keep on flying with...... nosegun. That's why you see "low usage time".

    2) Kills with lock ons will also be low. Why? Because lock-on user almost never gets the finisher with lock-on. Two factors: a) lock-on users also spray with nosegun, so some bullets can hit and that is what counts. Also such people don't usually fly alone, but with friendlies. More nosegun bullets. This is my personal experience as a pilot. b) Lots of people bail when they get hit by lock-on (they want to deny the kill) and redeploy!

    So now I hope you understand how things are in reality. This is supported by my personal experience as a pilot who flies mainly a2a and by many great pilots I know. Stats are very misleading.

    PS: Flares don't really help since they negate only the 1st shot. Before 2nd flares are ready, you're already dead. If you're TIMES better than the lock on user - you will kill him. But the skill gap that lock-ons fill is huge. If it's an a2a fight between 2 skilled pilots, it takes longer than TTK of lock ons. One user can just dodge and shoot lock-ons one after one and win. That's been proven by aces where one of two equal pilots would win quite easily with lock-ons. Other thing is that most good pilots don't use locks is because they realize how much of a boring crutch that is.

    EDIT: I see you replied regarding something I wrote already. Unfortunately I didn't see your post before for some reason. But I'd like to still leave my post like this. Again, lock ons are not usual finishers. It DOESN'T happen as much the other way like you said in your previous post. My "flyboy" experience. Since you're not a "flyboy", you can't know what is a usual finisher in the air and who runs lock ons and who OP they are.

    Not only top pilots don't use locks. Every pilot that is serious about getting better (of any skill level) uses nosegun instead, because you won't learn with locks. That's the truth.
    • Up x 1
  6. entrailsgalore

    So what you're saying is, every pilot in the united states military are "Bad" pilots because they fly with lock-on missiles?
    • Up x 2
  7. Cz4rMike

    Did you just compare real life warfare where you only have ONE life and where it takes huge skill to even take off the ground with a jet to A GAME? :D Wow... Do you know that army pilots don't really fight for FUN?

    That's a nice theory. However not really how it works in practice. If it would, top pilots wouldn't have problems to counter this. Unfortunately if your enemy is not a complete beginner, it's not that easy to "rush and kill".
    • Up x 1
  8. entrailsgalore

    Army pilots probably don't but I know some Air Force and Navy pilots that do. F-18's ftw.
  9. quatin

    A2A lock ons are fun. It's way better than any G2A roles. I'd rather chase ESFs with tomcats than sit in the spawn room with bursters.

    ESFs are broken to begin with. The skill ceiling and floor is way too high. The amount of time required to be a competent pilot is too much for the vast majority of the player base. Tomcats bring that skill floor a bit lower, but still not enough for ESFs to have a viable role.
    • Up x 1
  10. Jawarisin

    I was thinking for a second not to bother answer such a stup*d answer, but since I thought maybe you hadn't yet seen the world, here's a little secret on it: You don't respawn! So you use the strongest most overpowered thing you can do so that the other guy dies, and not you.
    • Up x 2
  11. ColonelChingles

    So if we could respawn, then we would voluntarily use the weakest weapon available to us for the sake of... something?

    We fight to win wars. To enforce our political will onto others. And you win wars by killing the other guy and preventing them from resisting your political will.

    And lock-on weapons are extremely effective at killing aircraft. That applies to AA as well as A2A. Modern aircraft and AA generally don't use cannon against other aircraft anymore, because BVR missiles are so much better and efficient.

    Respawning has nothing to do with it. For example, consider our modern use of armed UAVs. They don't "die", and indeed they sort of "respawn". Yet we're weaponizing the heck out of them, because despite the ability to respawn it still makes sense to blow up the other side as efficiently as possible.
    • Up x 3
  12. Jawarisin

    If we could respawn, the world would be different, and yes we would do stupid sounding things. People would probably be sent weapon-less to fight hand-to-hand, or all kind of dumb stuff. Also, you can imagine the military would be relatively small but with veterans psychopath having seen thousands upon thousands of battles. But the point is, if we could respawn, things would be way different. There's also IRL material cost to consider, and yeah we don't fight for "Fun" But I thought you would be quick-witted enough to pick the rest of that up.
  13. Demigan

    The stats I'm using isn't based on time used, but timeS they were used effectively.

    This does not prevent a vehicle kill, and seeing that lock-ons can also be used as finishers just as much as the nosecannon I don't think this holds too much in the discussion.

    Some stats are misleading, that doesn't mean that we can't use them and see what we can learn. It's much better than going on the experience of maybe 4 or 5 pilots who claim one thing, while in reality the stats don't show anything close to that.
    Also, even if what you say is true it will only turn the A2A lock-ons to equal or slightly better than nosecannons. Then we still run up the whole problem of every single weapon that was OP was used extensively and without any "honor" problems. Why would A2A lock-ons suddenly be excempt? Why would the PS2 community who have used every single OP weapon without remorse or any reason to hold back, including the air jockeys, suddenly have problems using this? It doesn't make sense in any way.

    Simply not true, I'm definitely not a good pilot in the air, but I've been running with flares (never jumped on the FS wagon when it came) and I've been annihilating any pilot who dares use A2A against me. So you are basically telling me that I suddenly only met the noobs while I get ransaked at every other air encounter? Come off it!

    Why not?
    "Since you aren't a flyboy, you can't know what ESF users use against infantry when they tear them apart".
    Eh, Hello! Infantry user here! I've been killed by them, I've seen how they fly and what weapons they use!
    "Since you aren't a flyboy, you can't know what ESF users use against tanks when they tear them apart".
    Eh, Hello! Tank user here! I've been killed by them, I've seen how they fly and what weapons they use!
    "Since you aren't a flyboy, you can't know what ESF users use against other ESF when they tear them apart".
    Eh, Hello! ESF user here! I've been killed by them, I've seen how they fly and what weapons they use!

    Just because I'm not a dedicated pilot or don't perform some tactics doesn't mean I can't know how others do it or how I could do it. I've used A2A lock-ons, I've used nosecannons, I've used rocketpods and afterburner. Are you going to say my experience doesn't matter? Are you really going to do that?

    Oh yes, and everyone is in it for the learning experience! Not for the fun is it? No single player is going to use them because "I won't learn that way".

    How come that whenever aircraft are involved, these type of "arguments" are used? In one fell sweep they instantly tell everyone about the so-called "honor" in learning to fly and combat, and how "everyone" will abstain from using OP weapons because... honor? Honor they haven't shown with any other weapon?
    And yet, you complain here. Funny how "everyone" doesn't use these type of weapons because it "stops you from learning" (despite being more of a blunt alpha damage and using nose-cannons as finishers, would be a perfect newby combo to learn the A2A game without having their *** handed to them every battle wouldn't it?).
    So you complain about this weapon, despite no-one "respectable" and "honorable" using it. How come? How can anyone come up with self-debilitating arguments like that and still claim to be true?
  14. Cz4rMike

    Do you know pilots who have fun KILLING people or DYING IRL?

    Are you serious? It's not about respawning. It's about different aims of a war game and real life war. Game "war" is SO distant in principles to real life one. Game may look similar to real war, but these two things are entirely different. I'm wow-ing for the 2nd time today.
  15. Jawarisin

    Flares are currently completely useless against A2A lock ons, they are WAY too slow to regenerate, and Fire Suppression will negate a good chunk of the first missile that hit you anyways. Flares are only usefull against ground lock ons because they give you the possibility to escape. Something you can't do against A2A lock ons.

    So no, there's no real counter to a2a lock ons, the flares would be like saying that Nanoweave armor is a hard counter to bullets. No it's not, it helps but that's it. Nanoweave is actually balanced though, so that's not the issue, it's only an analogy. The problem s flares barely help, because any decent pilot can make the fight last long enough to outlast the flare and shoot you down with more lock ons. Even a non-decent player can do it simply by hitting the afterburners in some random direction.


    Well yeah, you're obviously lying here to try to get your point across :) You're not a pilot? sure, that's your buisness. But then you say you murder everybody with lock ons?

    That's a big lie. The best pilot on the Emerald server (Rguitar) said he gets killed by lock ons. Admittedly he probably kills them more than not, but when a player that spent more time in an ESF than you've spent on the entire game says that something is a fun-killer and too strong, there's probably a good reason for it.
    (-- In case you wondered, you can hear him say a few words on that on his youtube channel during a dueling session video--)

    Also as a matter of a fact, no pilot trying to improve will use the lock-ons because it doesn't help a player becoming better. It's like saying I'm going to get better at running by crawling. Running short distances, and then longer and longer is what's going to help you, not crawling. Crawling will only help you crawl. (I do get told my analogies suck, but they get the point across!)
    As someone who's talked with a lot of pilots, all of them agree that using lock-ons won't help you improve.
    • Up x 1
  16. Ownasaurusrex

    Why do some people play ball badminton vs tennis vs wii tennis?

    Flares: Ammo, reload 10m active radius, %chance missile dodge.

    Lockons: buff damage and make easier to dodge with ESF movement (make more viable towards Libs/gals).
    Coyotes: they suck. But will be used for ESFvESF.
    New NS primary weapon: TRACTOR BEAM/AfterBurner Steal.. Allow an ESF to drag one down, throw an ESF into trees, TROLL ground! or a couple ESFs to pull libs/gals to the ground.
    • Up x 1
  17. Cz4rMike

    Answers in blue

  18. Jawarisin

    I put your comment in my sig, such a gem should never be lost. Wanted to let you know <3
    • Up x 2
  19. Cz4rMike

    My thoughts exactly, mate.

    Heh, it is indeed a gem, isn't it :DD
  20. Prudentia

    and that my friend is were you can easily compare Real life and the game
    because in both instances people will take the most overpowered thing they can get their hands on to prevent their death.