Fix the nc max

ALL Maxes do poorly outdoors, they have zero counter to long range stuff. Well, the AV stuff is decent, but MAX vs Tank is not a good bet for a MAX without cover. And that is ANY MAX unit.

But this, really? You cannot be this blind.

You mean "we won't have anything left that always works." You'll be in line with the other factions, and maybe use some NS weaponry. Instead of having a MAX with a massive shield and the ability to kill ANYTHING inside a room.

VS & TR Maxes aren't out-ranged in practical terms, by a basic Pistol.
There's a difference between out-ranged in practicality, where you can't even land a pellet with only 6 tries on a guy across a room, to fighting a Sniper-rifle.
Like longer-ranges for Max-units are acclaimed equal, are carbine ranges; For NC, that might as well be 'long'
When firing a shotgun.

TR & VS have 5 weapons, for AI, with disadvantages & advantages to their use between each other, capable up-close and at taking pot shots, with a long-sustain, and short reloads.
NC has a long-reload, low capacity weapon, with 2-3 notable weapons out of the 5 shotguns. The 'longest' is the Mattlock.
Which for most people, is the only shotgun worth knowing about, but no one has a reason to even own all 5.
For VS & TR; The starter weapon is crap, but you actually have several that achieve different roles, ranges, and more.

NC; You have 4 weapons of the same range, 4 weapons of near same mag, 1 weapon for slightly better range, 1 for slightly larger magazines, and the rest are basically identical; That's of 5, AI guns.

Do you ever see an VS or TR Max, pick an NS Gorgon for AI work, to gain range, damage, or anything of the like?
It's outclassed by every AI weapon of the VS & TR, and they each have equal or better range to it.

Always works? You understand how regular shotguns in this game work right?
If they always worked, why are people bothering with other weapons?
Kill anything? Dear lord, across a room, you only waste shells, hell a stairway can out-range it.
Hell, it has 6 shots; If it misses, it has 5 left, make it miss again, and you could have 4 people suicide, to kill it.
Or just open-fire on it, realize it can't actually kill you all, at different distances, and has to cross the distance, making all the Anti-max options even easier to use.

I've literally said, to equalize the options of all 3 Maxes.
If we just nerf NC, NC is left with only 1 Specialized set of weapons, while VS & TR get universal-range weapons with little downtime.
Like dear lord, do we compare Scout-Rifles to Bolt-Actions in the head-shot game?
That's literally the case, and I get flak for saying Equalize the damn ranges, the damn capabilities?
Is it so bad, to let Maxes all have equal range options?

Yeah, and you NEVER ever wondered why you only see VS with blueshifts? It's clearly cause you got 5 guns that are great and just serve different roles. The truth is that all others are downgrades of the blueshifts...and the blueshift neither has true long range(due to huge spread) nor CQC(due to lack of alpha damage). It's just a jack of all trades and not really good at anything(and we all know that jack of all trades are NEVER the best guns overall). Do you ever wonder why NC is not using gorgons much? Yeah, cause it's even more of a jack of all trades than blueshifts(cause gorgon can even damage vehicles) and as such pretty bad compared to the shotguns.

If you miss with a gun where every single shot kills then you still got 5 left. If you miss 6times then your aim is truely crappy and you should find a different game(Snake or something like that). Don't act like hitting something with 1 out of 6 shots is some kind of magic...

Yeah, if it was a VS MAX you just need 1 player at all distances. Close up he will have a problem to kill you before your c4 explodes(granted that their chances increased a bit with the nerfed c4 timer). Long distance he got no chance against any rocket launcher. And down the stairs he is toast if you got an ambusher jumpjet.
If he had a shotgun you would die up close...you would die up close with a ambusher...he had good chances for a lucky pellet spread down the stairs...and you would do him no damage on long range cause he would just run around the next corner protected by his shield so you got to come close. And then he might have slugs(and you won't know it before you are dead) which changes the whole thing again.
Deadly alpha damage will always win over having to hit someone 6 times, but having shorter reload times, more bullets etc.. And in a game where you HAVE TO come close it does not matter if you got a bad long range(VS) or an even worse long range(NC) weapon. It matters how good your gun is in CQC. I mean, it's not like VS is having long range OHK HESH ammo...like tanks. It's not like they can kill anyone from long distance that is not a total fool.

...And we're back to exaggerating traits of different weapons again.

At its core, Krelas is asking for an alternative to what the NC MAX already doing well. He's also supportive of the idea of adding CQC MAX weapons to the other factions. Ultimately granting all three factions more options. You're all bogged down in anecdotes and hyperbole of when and where each faction is awesome, crap, or whatever.

Yes, the NC MAX is awesome up close and I think its limited ranged is exaggerated but it is more limited.
Yes, the VS/TR MAX are generalist weapons but can be used effectively at closer ranges too.

As long as new potential options stay true to each faction I have no problems with more options. However, we also need to take in account the faction MAX abilities. For instance, a pure CQC option for a TR MAX might suffer quite horribly due to having no real ability close the gap at all and the ZOE is currently pretty horrid.

^ This.
All to this.

Like my gods, I spend more time having to debate the effectiveness of a shotgun, whenever I talk about giving every side the same kind of weapons, than About what that would bloody involve, with ES abilities
-- As two of these are even more situational than sane, making them have issues trying to match a weapon to them.

I ain't the one that claimed VS got 5 different AI weapons for MAX that are all useful in different situations and pretty compareable to NC shotguns. I'm quite sure he never even used a blueshift...

The reason it's worse is because if you miss with the SAW on your opening salvo you are probably going to die. It has perfect first shot accuracy from a stationary kneel, then it's going to buck like a bronco. It's moving first shot CoF is pretty bad then again followed by that bronco. You have about 4 shots to wrestle with this (and wrestle you will lest that thing be pointing at the sky). At the 5th shot the bloom has rendered the gun useless regardless of your recoil compensation..

With the Carv and Orion you can initiate a burst on the run. The recoil and bloom will let you maintain a fairly good cluster on the head and if you mistakenly let things get into full auto without control, you'll still have decent hitrate against the body. They behave in the same ballpark as say the Promise or the EM6. Very well behaved weapons.

BTW, all this is talking ADS here. The SAW has hipfire so bad that you'll get RNG hits on people standing behind you.

It's the opening free weapon on NC heavies. Go play one for a while. I promise you what I'm saying will be very obvious.

TBH if you initiate the salvo and your first shots hit (or better yet, get headshots with them), then the SAW wielder basically won. After some shots, sure, it does come down to RNG, but you can stop and do another burst. SAW is hella powerful, it's just quite different, also it's got Adv. Forward grip and Compensator, so there is a way to mitigate the recoil that isn't skill-based. It's individual kicks are rough, but because of the low RPM, they're broken up and less frequent, meaning that you also have more time to compensate before another shot.

It's hip-fire, now I did have lots of success within 4m and less. But you'd even consistently hit targets with a sniper while hipfiring at that range, so it really doesn't mean much and is only really useful if someone's blatantly in your face. It can be really good and really bad depending on your RNG, as your shots can range between 400 damage or no damage at all. Not terrible, but really about luck of the draw, I'm saying this because I almost never ADS within 3m or so, even with LMGs. There are few LMGs that can hip-fire well for the first few shots, but even then they aren't accurate enough for sustained hip-fire.

At it's core, SAW is a win more/lose more gun. Wins you engagements if you're more skilled or at least aware of it's downsides, but outside of it's comfort zone it falls short, and it's only at it's best if you hit-and-run or have a clear range advantage, something newer players don't know how to exploit. Recoil isn't the problem, the CoF is, though.


Comparing the SAW and other starters, those are very different weapons, something which is explained poorly to new players and ppl still treat them similarly. It's a long-range LMG amidst CQC LMGs.

Taking off the compensator and using laser sight will surprise you. Pleasantly.

Comp + grip is the "vanilla" style for the SAW but after a bit of testing in VR they don't actually seem to do much at all. They help, obviously, yet using it without doesn't make it as unruly as I remember (perhaps there was a change when they adjusted attachments and cert costs?). A couple of streamers planted the idea in my head and, yepp, it actually works well. Don't expect SMG accuracy though!

Mind figuratively blown. Now I'm starting to wonder what other weapons I'm using which might not really benefit much at all from the comp + grip.

I actually do use the saw quite extensively on my NC and none of the things you're saying Ive really noticed. Maybe you're talking about a stock saw and mine has the adv forward grip which could make a world of differences but Id say of the 3 starter LMG's saw is by far the easiest and best, a combination of high power and 3 hit kill headshots at all ranges with its slow RoF making recoil easy to manage makes what is imo the best LMG in the game.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an awesome gun and the reload/clip changeup on the godsaw is even better. I wouldn't trade it now for either of the VS or TR starters, but both of them are far easier to learn I think.

But not sure why you aren't noticing this same stuff?

I don't really notice recoil on the Carv or Orion but I definitely feel it on the Saw. Every burst takes it's own little pulldown. You may be past noticing it, but make a conscious decision not to compensate and it will reveal itself once more.

It's the bloom that gets me though. The ADS bloom begins to get exponential at the 5th shot so sustained fire at anything but near-hipfire range is going to require a brief lift around every 5th shot. Kill a distant wall at the warpgate to see what I mean.

There are flaws in his argument, yes, I'm just trying to unpack what's being said and move on to what we're actually saying/want.

Regardless of my disagreements, I don't see any disadvantage to adding a must sustain fire mode weapon to the NC MAX while giving VS/TR a more CQC dedicated option. As long as it is done right, i.e. not destroying faction traits further, and with each faction abilities in mind.

Maybe Im just desensitized to recoil from using the butcher so much. Honestly I never felt like recoil was ever a prominent thing in this game it feels lacking at best. CoF I will agree is a massive problem but its a massive problem with all the factions. All guns require bursting (except NS guns) and while some like the lynx can burst in fairly large bursts it takes 8 hits to kill at point blank range and 10 at minimum damage range. The gauss saw can burst up to around 6 before the CoF becomes less of aiming and more of RNG but it takes 5 to kill at point blank and 6 at anything beyond that. Frankly I think the guass saw just fits the meta of the game better and the high alpha damage makes it alot more new user friendly since newer players probably wont have the best aim so the very powerful headshots can easily help them win a fight they would normally lose.

another prime time, just give us a shield so we can deal with nc maxes...

Another prime time, another massively incomplete data set.

These tiny snapshots don't prove anything in anyway.

That just shows me that most of the people MAXing are doing it wrong. If your K/D in a max is anything less than 15, you aren't using MAXes the correct way with support. The shield has nothing to do with it. Your pocket engi can carry hard light barriers for MAXes to duck behind when reloading.

NC MAXes are probably the best MAXes for point holding and I only pull the shield when someone is shooting a rocket in my face. I'm far more likely to die to a light assault C4 through a window or get shot in the back by a rocket when I get distracted trying to kill that infil that killed my engy.

Furthermore you need to understand the strength and weaknesses of the different faction MAXes.

The NC max is good at insta-gibbing while also being powerful against other MAXes, however you have to be very close to your target, even right up to the doorway,corner, or window, which puts you in harm's way of C4, tank mines, and without enough time to deflect rockets with the shield. Being closer also puts your engi and medics in more danger as repairing and reviving is riskier. Yes you can use slugs, but then you lose your anti-max ability.

TR Max is stronger at holding positions like a stairwell or hallway. Your engineers and medics can be safe around a corner or standing behind the Max. Having lockdown basically means that NC maxes either have to use charge to close the distance or shield. Either way they become vulnerable to C4 and tank mines.

The VS Max is the most mobile. They shouldn't be stationary but should instead flex and even withdraw a little bit as an attack comes in so that more firepower can be brought to bear on an attacker. It's harder to get close to VS maxes because they can move away more easily and lead you into traps like mines or laugh at you as you have to jump over hard lights to get to them.

It's because the SAW is mostly vertical recoil, the most easily of compensated recoil since you just pull down. Once you start to understand how this game's gun work, the Laser sight becomes a much more useful attachment, especially on vert recoil guns. Alot of NCs guns are vert recoil as well, with VS & TR having more side to side jerks than verts.

Since Lasers benefit of a tightening hipfire CoF can't be replicated with just getting to know the weapon, it becomes a more useful attachment the more you "git gud" so to speak.

Averages are averages... you may have ppl with 90 kdr and other with 1 ... this is a mass fps... in prime time miller has something like 1.3k players online...

What is insane is that NC max often has 2 times the kdr of the other maxes.

The Below is a theory:
Well, near everyone sorta drills that an NC Max isn't to be outside, the weapon type name implies short-range so most tend to instinctively stay there, Bio-Lab farms are a common theme for NC maxes ---->
So people tend to use these things in their 'perfect' environment a lot, when it looks like it's only viable in one-spot, so they naturally flood to it.
That, and do you see how many VS & TR stand outside, and unload a few magazines while going down a hill, or from a hill-top?
It's been said, their practical effective range is similar, but they tend to be used in engagements further than it commonly.
Let alone when you give someone a "Long range" named Chaingun, or machine-gun, they might fire well before they'd reliably hit something, instead of closing the gap (This tends to be the Maxes, I archer' to the head.)

That, and it seems TR & VS pull more maxes, outside of compact bases.
Easily wrong on that guess, for obvious reasons.

Again, just a theory.