Liberator vs ESF needs some work

For the most part, I love our current air to air balance. Well done DBG. But there is a little tuning to be done.

The Lib should be more vulnerable to ESF nose guns from the top.

I love Libs, they're hands down my favorite thing about PS2, and I love that they're in a competitive place again. Belly resistance added a great new dynamic to the vehicle and the Dalton nerf brought the fights closer. But...... most ESF pilots just ignore Libs due to the ridiculous amounts of bullets they require to take down, and I find myself running Tomcats because they're the only realistic way to deal enough damage outside of a gank squad. I hate that. I'd even be fine with a buff to belly armor if the top got a (-) resistance, which would really promote close quarters fighting and strategy in the air. Tomcats and Coyotes shouldn't take advantage of these changes.

I think the only problem on lib vs esf is that lib can outrepair nosegun damage by landing, instead of trying to escape. A roof armor vulnerability will solve that problem.
If you want to make tomcat and coyotee ignore lib armor, the only way would be to make them deal splash damage instead of direct damage. (but it will also ignore belly armor).

I wasn't clear. Tomcats and Coyotes shouldn't gain any benefit from these changes, they don't deserve it. You also bring up a good point about grounded Libs. 2 birds with one stone.

Your first message was clear enough for tomcat / Coyotes, but I was pointing out what is possible to do with the current tools, not if it deserve it or not. As far as i know, ignoring armor is a boolean YES/NO.

Are you kidding me, a locust at range tears apart a lib in 20 secs in the air. The other factions have something similar that do the same. The lib got nerfed into the ground composite armor is worthless, its not competative at all anymore vs flak fire. Skyguards tear it to shreds, burster maxes and rangers eat it alive. All you have to do in a esf is put 2 clips in it and its gone. I miss the dalton lib fights and the dalton vs esf one shots, took tons of skill flying and shooting now its just a piece of junk. I suppose you want to shoot it down with 3-4 hits from a needler.

DBG should hire you

Assuming a 100% accuracy, Antares kill a liberator in 21,5 sec. That's enough time to run away to the warpgate, near squadmate in skyguard or even to land so you can outrepair the nosegun (300 dps vs 166x3 repair per sec).
Meanwhile walker kill an ESF in 7,1 sec (assuming it always deal min damage and with 100% accuracy).

As I said, except for that cheesy outrepair tactic, liberator is fine against air.

And see even less liberators? They are already nearly a galaxy level of punching bag in the air, they don't need ESF's that can even more easily solo them by staying 200m+ away while they are inevitably getting flak ****** and shelled from every direction lol. RIP if they are anywhere near the amount of strikers TR has.

To me, this just sounds like another idea to make ESFs be able to 1 vs. everything easily. Not sure you guys will be happy until you are the total undeniable apex of the game.

Yeah, not gonna lie, libs are definitely a punching bag. Save for those extremely rare players who can turn the walker into a reaper of death and destruction, a lib is usually left with only two choices when an ESF appears. Either leave the area and hope you can get enough friendly AA cover to convince the ESF to back off, or die trying.

• The Locust may work like that in the testing grounds, but at range against a moving Lib's belly, it's a different story. Keep in mind that I'm also proposin a buff to belly armor against nose guns.
• Rangers are OP. We agree. See my other thread. But the Lib isn't to blame. As far as air goes, I think it's very well balanced and competitive.
• I agree that composite is worthless. It needs flak resistance back or a substantial health boost unless flak gets its much needed nerf.
• We have to agree to disagree about the Dalton. I love the lack of Libs spamming Daltons at render range. But I won't get in to that. The best part of how fun Dalton/ESF fights went was each aircraft trying to out maneuver the other because of the Lib's belly weapons. Belly armor brought back that dance, and a more drastic difference between top and bottom hits would really make that type of fighting almost mandatory.

You guys are Libbing wrong. They're in a great place against ESF. Vato4NC was the single Dalton gunner I was afraid of on Connery, even when the Dalton was OHK. It was half skill and half chance for 99% of gunners against competent ESF pilots. Now we have good tail guns, belly armor, nerfed Tomcats, pathetic Coyotes against Libs, and a stock nosegun that lets you solo most ESF. I've spent a ton of time in the 3 ESFs, Valks and Libs over the past 2 weeks of my PS2 binge, and they all feel better balanced than ever. I see liberators all the time on Connery, 24/7, and they're holding their own against pairs of ESF. I've never had a solo ESF chase me away or beat me, and most pairs get a run for their money, and I haven't been using real Lib gunners either on my Shredder Walker/Drake Lib.

Fire Suppression, Racer, and either NAR or Stealth.

Racer is critical unless you have air superiority. Solo ESF fear you and you can most often make it to the Warpgate or a friendly hive or zerg when you face too many planes.

A lib wth Hyenas or a Walker combined with 2 ESF is an "I win" button. Enemy ESF can't focus you down and that easy damage from your tail while they're engaged just destroys them.

@ adamts01

I am fine where they are atm vs. an ESF. I am just saying your proposed change is totally not necessary and ESF's don't need to be any better vs. them. It is a 450/3 person aircraft after all, not really supposed to be a even fight imo. Your last example confuses me though. If you're trying to go against an organized group of air with libs/ESF , you need a similar group to go head to head or bring anti air on the ground. You shouldn't be able to just waltz in with an ESF or two and take out the lib in seconds...Maybe im misunderstanding your point though.

Also, I have played a lot of Connery and recently am trying to go full Emerald. The air game on Emerald, in my experience, is 10x more intense, with many more highly skilled ESF pilots. The only liberators I see being successful on Emerald are usually aided by a few ESF's and/or are very skilled to begin with. Anything else is pretty much shot down immediately.

The difference between Connery and Emerald is huge though, so I am not surprised your opinion differs from mine and you actually see libs often on Connery.

More top damage, but less bottom damage. That would be a buff to a good Lib.

To be fair, I am only a casual lib player at most. Plus, its very rare that the places where I tend to end up being in a liberator have friendly air superiority ( skies are usually either clear or being heavily fought over). So as someone who is usually operating libs in that sort of environment, one ESF against a less then idealy skilled crew can cause some serious havoc, even on Connery.

I can definitely see this not being the case with players more skilled in the air then myself however, of which there are likely plenty.

Plus, most of the time i'm in a lib, were going Dalton Walker, cause blasting tanks is fun.

TLDR: Chances are your right.

Did you max Racer? I really see that as key these days. If your gunner can't land enough hits with the Walker then consider Hyenas. With Racer you can easily close to their optimal range. While you're closing you can nose down and really wreck ESF with the default gun. It deals a flat 300 damage at any range at 400 rpm giving it more damage than ESG long range guns but with the same velocity and accuracy as a stock ESF nose gun. With the ability to aim with the mouse without the acceleration and need for A & D like ESF have to deal with, it's actually incredibly effective. Stealth doubles the lock time of missiles, but I prefer NAR. If it's a close fight with an ESF you can be at full health really quickly if he turns to run. 18 seconds of not being shot brings you from half to full.

Try running as a 2-man with Vector/Dalton/Hyenas. If you get in a dogfight then focus on using your stock gun and let your tailgunner take shots when he can get them, which is quite often if you close with Racer and the ESF is evading your nose gun. You're a bigger target but you have a much easier time aiming and so much more health, plus a tailgunner. I just don't see solo ESF as any sort of threat, even with Tomcats.

I usually run gunner for my friend, and his build includes flares, composite, and I don't know what chassis. We usually run dalton, walker, and buster or occasionally vector. Basically, we tend to run a ground pound lib and stick to either roof or very low altitudes making rapid strafing attacks.

Again, neither of us are veteran flyers, plus, I struggle with most of the tail guns for the lib ( barely visible tracers and colour blindness are a horrid mix). I do admit we should probably run a hyena instead on our build, given that issue.

If we were running a different build, and spent more time in the air, I suspect we might fair better, but as it is, neither of us are experienced enough at using the lib for air to air to have the odds be in our favor. Were in that position of " using the lib enough to justify investing at least somewhat into it, but not enough for us to get seriously better at using it".

You should try flying on emerald instead.
It's seems like a much different air-game.

I hear that, but I also hear people who play both complain about the same things. I also don't think those elitist guys over there give some Connery pilots enough credit. There are some guys over here that I'm sure could go up against some of the best from over there. Either way, my proposed change has little to do with what server you're on. More top damage and less belly damage just lets good Libs beat bad ESF and Good ESF beat bad Libs. If both are good then it's probably a wash, or even give the Lib a defensive boost as it could just fly upside down back to the warpgate. Either way, I'm in the Philippines with a bad enough ping to Connery, so Emerald is out of the question, plus the server sounds pretty dead my time of day, something that can never be said about Connery. I'm happy here.

I am against it.
Lib got health buffed, but damage reduced. For it to have effect, it needs to stay longer. Any ESF forces you to run, other sources of AA not included. So atm it is allready well balanced. Cant help "lazy" ESFs that think it will take to long to kill a Lib, just because farming infantry/vehicles is easier.

There's nothing lazy about it. Someone else did the math and figured out that it takes a full 1/3 minute with the anti-Lib nose gun. By the way that thing tickles my Lib on my belly armor I'd guess it takes twice the time, so a full 40 seconds if the Lib is flying correctly. That's enough time for any Racer Lib to casually stroll back to the warpgate. All I'm proposing is a system that lets decent ESF pilots get a kill within a reasonable amount of time IF they're able to keep maneuvered above the enemy. In which case they should be rewarded. Flying with a wingman it has become critical to bring those ****** noob weapons if you want to stand a chance at getting a Lib kill. I want Tomcats to be an option if you can't aim/maneuver, not a necessity to get kills outside of a gank squad. This isn't a pure dps change, or any sort of nerf. It's a system that gives better pilots an option besides bringing lock-ons.

Then please consider what a Lib can actually do IF encounterd by a ESF: Run or die. The TTK of the ESF has to be high in order to open at least the possibilty to run away. Even with Racer, a ESF can stay within fireing range all the time.