[Vehicle] The Magrider is complete garbage

Read the first and last page, I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. I think Vanguards?
As for Rival/Racer, I use Racer because I'm impatient and it takes a long time to get places.

i think theres like two guys having an ongoing vanguard discussion, and i didnt read it at all since they both post walls of text so im not sure if they're discussing or arguing lol

even with racer and angling maggy is sooooo slow

If you play on Cobalt, you might want to watch Ubizza play their Magrider, probably the best one on the server, every fight with that guy both 2/2 with my vangard is always to the bare wires tense. compared to literally all the other maggies floating around that dudes jesus. lol.

I know right? It's such a fun tank! It has such a unique playstyle and is quite fun. Just last night my buddy and I hopped on VS to troll my outfit buddies setting up a base and while we were on our way we ran into tons of armor. Killed our way through a few ANTs, Harassers, and Prowlers with little to no difficulty lol. Completely uncerted Magrider (save magburner 1 and the saron).

Was quite fun! People just really need to learn how to play to the tanks advantages.

The extra 10 KPH is definitely noticeable though.

Unless you can find me something more concrete, Rival does not upgrade your braking power. You should compare Rival braking power to vanilla Vanguard braking power.
If the brake power is equal but the Racer makes you go faster you have a shorter time to react and need a longer time to brake because, surprise, you start from a higher speed when you brake.

Besides that there's fairly few advanced tactics that use your reverse speed or torque, and I rarely ever need that extra turning power. The Vanguard already has strong sides, so keeping it's front armor aimed at the enemy is less important, not to mention that turning your front from one enemy to the next in a timely fashion only works if they are somewhere in your frontal region anyway. At best you can try and keep your back away from your enemy, and while many claim it's impossible for a Magrider to keep up with your backside it's completely possible.

Racer doesn't "just" get you higher speed an climbing capabilities, it gets you much easier access to your opponents, gives you an edge in staying unseen when crossing any terrain, helps you keep up with enemies when they flee, it allows you to better deal the finishing blows on your enemy when they move for repairs and you still have superior health. Just like with mines the enemy has less time to react to you when they do spot you, and that can be crucial in tank combat especially when it comes to getting a shot in your enemies back after a flanking maneuver (many times you can't start the maneuver directly behind them due to terrain and enemy reinforcements.
Compare that to Rival, who I'll generously now attribute with "better capable of preventing enemy shots in your rear and keeping front armor at your enemy", and it's still underperforming. Especially since preventing a shot in the rear is mostly used when you effed up/were outplayed rather than pull off a good solid tactic and the aiming of your front to your enemy isn't exactly supa-dupa great on the Vanguard.

You would get bored if it was easy.

You still try to say the racer is better somehow even though he just proved the rival is superior, he and i use the same playstyle. You are only making a fool of yourself.

How'd he "prove" it? By mixing a few things up like braking power and naming more capabilities?

Hover frame gives upgrades to an aircraft than Dogfighting frame, but the way the game plays means that the upgrades Hover Frame gives are simply superior in each and every way. This is why his list of capabilities makes no difference, as I made clear in the post you quoted: Racer gives more important benefits and is better applicable in a larger amount of scenario's than Rival. Rival simply does not offer the advantages you want if you are using more advanced tactics.

No, it doesent give better benefits to someone who knows how to properly drive a tank and you should stop arguing about this with someone who has spent 700 hours with a rival and some time with racer because he knows what is good for the vanguard.

Look who's talking Axiom.

Despite Stalkish his long track record, he's still underperforming on a per-hour rating compared to me. So he might have more playtime, he's still lagging behind me. What could that difference be? Why would I still have better stats? Oh deary me I wonder...

But we can go one further: While Stalkish his hours on the Vanguard are higher, his Lightning tank usage is close to mine. And once again, who wins from who? Oh yeah it's me, and I win hard. Just the AP canon difference is painful to watch: KPH: 38.6 vs 27.6 in my favor, and where it truly matters VKPH: 27.8 vs 19.3. I beat him with the other weapons as well.
clearly I'm doing something different than you two guys, and clearly I get better results because of it. Now I've told you what I'm using and why it's superior, and considering both of you claim to be tactically adept the difference would be... Me using Racer to my advantage on both the Vanguard and Lightning, where you two use the Rival chassis.

So yes, I am going to argue with someone who has more playtime than me, because despite his extra playtime he didn't make it count. The longer he plays, he more his experience should be drowning out any inexperienced mistakes he made in the early beginning. So we can assume that his current playstyle has reached his peak with the Vanguard by now and isn't going to improve much. Imagine what my scores would be at 900+ hours instead of 70? And as I already told you, I've used Rival as well for a long time before switching to Racer and seeing all it's merits.

Now I can't say Stalkish is bad at tanking, because he's not. But the difference between choices is clear, and the Racer I've advocated is superior.

Theres a lot to respond to here, so forgive me if i miss anything.
With regards to braking, i was comparing Racer to Rival, as in Racer is faster than Rival, Rival brakes quicker than Racer.
Whether or not they are upgrades or downgrades from the stock i didnt consider, the stock chassis in all vehicles are inferior.
And no, the brakes are stronger, definitely, the diff in speed is what 5kph, yet the diff in stopping distance is about 30m.

Advanced tactics that require Racer, OK, by all means share them with me, simply saying 'hur dur, advanced tactics' is no point at all. I listed several places where Rival helps me, harassers / mag on my rear, stopping for mines, keeping frontal armour towards multiple enemies.
Then theres things like, slipping over an apex of a hill, pivotting correctly at the top and 'instantly' spinning the frontal armour. This can also be acheived at the top of any slope, i cannot do this with Racer, i either loose traction from the speed when hitting the slope, or my tank simply turns sideways and begins sliding. I can drive towards a cliff or a steep undrivable slope and do the same thing, twitch my frontal armour around in an instant, ive been accused of hacking many times due to this maneuver.

O and no, a mag cannot keep himself on my rear, i dont know where you got that ridiculous notion, clearly you've never even tried Rival in that situation if you think thats the case, its just totally, blatantly wrong. Racer in the other hand, even a lightning could out pace your traverse.
Ever play peek-a-boo tactics in your tank? Well good luck getting out and back in again with the atrocious forward - reverse transition Racer has, yes you'll do it, but you'll defo take both those prowler main shells, or almost all those saron shots when you do.

All you've listed as a + for Racer is getting to your enemy faster / easier. Which i admitted was a pro for Racer, but its literally the 1 and only pro. Any in battle maneuvering you can do with Racer, yo can do much better with Rival, and the Van being so big you're never going to outpace some1s aim, not when they know what their doing, but out duping them to miss by quickly transitioning your movement direction is absolutely a valid, extremely effective tactic.
I got bored with long range shelling about 800 hours ago. I like to get into spitting range, shove myself right up the backside of an advancing zerg (i always fight against the odds unless absolutely impossible, curse you 40% pop), Rival affords me a much better chance of survival in those situations

I feel you listed the benefits of a stealth build and somehow credited Racer with it, any flank you can do with Racer+stealth you can do with Rival+stealth, just in some rare situations you have to reverse up a flaking hill where Racer would go up forwards . I fail to see how Racer helps your chances once the enemy spots you, you've cited this as a plus but i cannot quantify it, how does your quickness in arriving there correlate to their ability to shoot back? I dont understand what you're trying to say, if i flank, with whatever chassis, i will get the first shot in the rear of my opponent, and it will be when they arnt expecting it.

Im not talking (solely) about turnig your front once you've been flanked, that is of course another + for Rival, im talking about when you've already engaged some1, or rounded a corner and come face to face with some1, like a harasser or a mag (which happens a lot when your trying to flank within enemy territory and 90% of your opponents also run stealth). Both of those targets will try to get on your rear, a mag will try to boost over you and turn, well i turn faster so good luck with that, a harasser will try to zip past you so they get some rear shots as they attempt to speed away and create distance, with Rival i will simply turn as they pass, absorbing 68% of their damage.

You mention the way the game plays when comparing it to ESFs (which play the game completely differently, but lets ignore that) but you then list, as i said, only 1 advantage for Racer, getting to your opponents. You seem to completely discount what amounts to a fairly sizable part of the game - the unexpected.
A lib dive bombs you, what do you do? Attmept to out-run it with Racer? Not going to happen, so you attempt to dodge it. Easier with Rival.
Unexpected encounters make a large portion of the game, especially when far away from friendly forces on a long flank inside enemy lines.

Ill stop now since this wall has gone on far too long.

Just get off your high horse for a second, and why are you so ******* horny about flaunting your kd all over the place? No one gives a single **** how many kills you have because it doesent translate to how good the chassis is but how petty you are for trying to tell me that "oh my kd is just better than you so my chassis choice must be better then yours" no, it isnt because i dont farm as much as you do which is evident by you not having as many vehicle kills as me. Furthermore, i have tried to explain to you time and time again a simple speed boost does NOTHING useful and before you can pull your ******** "oh but it allows me to get places faster" and that is such a big boon innit? More speed means less sitational awareness because you dont properly pay attention to your surroundings. And even more than that, what will you do when you get surprised by someone? Run away with your *** showing? Because thats about all you can do with a racer equipped whereas with a rival you can extremely quickly turn around and deny them any further *** shots and quickly dive into cover and then try to drive around them. Whereas with a racer you would have tried to turn while going at max speed, clumsily hitting something and stopping dead, and while trying to desperately dive into cover you have an enemy tank shooting at you. Tell me, how much use would you get out of a racer in that situation? Now please, stop trying to tell me the racer is better, because its not. FIN

Are you really **** talking my stats to some other person.

By all means spend 931 hours in a vanguard. Make sure tho that you are:

1. training new players and outfit members
2. defending impossible fights against massive odds (as i said i never roll with with a friendly zerg unless absolutely impossible not to)
3. sitting around doing nothing for hours defeinding your outfit base from the odd attack.
4. always drive from your warpgate to the fight when you first log on (yes i do this, call it a throwback to a simpler time)
5. having races (yes we have vanguard races)

After 38 days of driving that thing, and 100+ days actually playing the game, you kinds of loose interest in anything stat related if indeed you ever had that interest, i didnt, heck i played planetside 1 through its entirety and there was no stats for most of it, never an offical stats page, you didnt even get session stats when it released iirc. The other night i logged on, had a chat with my outfit m8, discussed the new motion spotter changes with a friend in /tell, then logged off. For some reason i pulled a van as soon as i logged in, and sat in it at the warpgate for about 45 mins driving around in circles before logging, its just a natural thing for me to do now, grab a van, its instinct, heh often i waste my only resources doing that.

People are allowed to have a diff of opinion, its what life is all about. Theres no need to personally attack some1 just because you feel differently, just say i feel differently, state why, and then call it a day. TBH im kinda annoyed with myself for writing this response but whatever, i bit.

I'm so ******* horny about flaunting my KD since you claimed I knew nothing, and I found that it was a readily available source that says that yes, my tactics aren't just hypothetically good they are actually better than what you are using. Hence: Get off your high horse and just accept that I'm right.

...
I kill more vehicles per hour than you do in a Vanguard, so I am better at both hunting and killing vehicles than you. The fact that I simultaneously am better at nailing infantry and get more kills doesn't make me a farmer, it just makes me better at killing infantry.

Actually you do give a crap, you get all worked up about it. You are my intended audience, I am giving you advice on how to improve. Yet you challenge my claims, so my response is to show you why my claims are valid. Then after I've challenged them, you just resort to attacking me personally or grabbing every straw someone else offers to shout "See?!?!? I was right!" even though I constantly offer you the knowledge that you weren't.

Suuuuuuuuure it does nothing useful. Why exactly? I could use this "argument" just as much against you: "Chassis turn ratio boost does nothing useful". Good argument eh?
Well ofcourse it's not a good argument, which is why I explained why, where and how it's not as useful as the speed boost, and how, where and why the speed boost is more useful than the Rival chassis.

As for situational awareness, no it doesn't go down. It's not as if you are going 4x faster or anything, you have more than enough time to check your surroundings and with just the knowledge of the surroundings you can even predict where enemies could be a potential danger.

I don't often get surprised, especially not with a CQC shot in the back since I don't often sit around trading shots. If I get shot in the back I'm moving, so I use my superior speed to get in cover and get in a good battle position before the enemy can get to me. If I was fast enough I'll even have time to repair.
"Oh but with Rival you would have been able to turn faster, reducing the chance they get a shot on you while turning".
Sure, and with Racer I reach the cover faster and can start turning sooner. Also since I'm using Racer there's less chance I get spotted and stabbed in the back in the first place or that the enemy has a good shot on my back when they do see me.

And don't forget that any tank that surprises you from behind will have a clear advantage and is probably going to win that battle no matter what you do. So trying to turn around is actually the least useful thing you can do, what you want to do is either reset the engagement or get an advantage somewhere, such as better terrain or using that cover-reflex many players have by ducking behind cover yourself and doing pop-up attacks causing them to erroneously get in cover themselves as well.

I understand that you would clumsily try to turn, hit something and stop dead, but I don't because I'm a competent driver.

I just did some VR tests, I could reliably stop my Racer Vanguard in +/-8m from top speed 66Km/h
The Rival Vanguard did have much better brakes, and could be stopped in 2 to 4m from it's top speed of 55Km/h.

Neither braking distance is exactly a stellar supa-dupa difference during combat.

While standing still, it took +/-9 seconds to do a 360 on the Racer Vanguard or 4.5 seconds for a 180.
While standing still, it took +/-6 seconds to do a 360 on the Rival Vanguard or 3 seconds for a 180.

Advanced tactics do not require racer, but advanced tactics are more powerful and better to pull off with Racer.

When on earth do you want to use this maneuver? When there's guys practically on top of you and you are moving up a hill? Why make yourself an extra target? Why on earth would anyone even think you cheat if it isn't exactly a stellar outcome? Why would Racer be weaker if you have more chance to actually reach the top? Why not just pass over the top and use the safety to repair, turn and potentially wreck your opponent?

Peek-a-boo tactics, yeah those are advanced... It's just the tactic that every single player uses from day one in their vehicles and it is based on trading shots and hoping your opponent doesn't reach safety soon enough... No peek-a-boo tactics are the least of your worries, and if you actually have to rely on that little bit of reverse acceleration to get to safety you already messed up and peek-a-boo'd too long.

It's not the one and only pro, and at least it's a pro that counts many more than the "omg I messed up" capabilities of the Rival.

Any CQC maneuvering you can do with the Racer, the Rival can do better. However the moment we get out of CQC the Racer trumps the Rival. Your enemy has a much slower strafing circle around you so the Racer turn ratio's are good enough, but any maneuver you want to pull off will require... Speed. If you want to do anything at anything other than CQC combat, you need speed first of all (although in CQC combat the acceleration of the Racer is a massively welcome upgrade especially if you already have your armor facing the right way). If you want to jump from cover to cover, try to get anywhere unseen, want to avoid more shots, want to be less restricted by terrain deformations the thing you want is speed as it helps you jump cover, it helps you get somewhere with less time to be seen, it helps you avoid more shots, it helps you climb terrain deformations that Rival would get stuck in.

And about trying to dupe people to miss them, the Vanguard will always remain a brick when steering with or without Rival Chassis. You are better off using your speed. Turning while doing 66km/h means your enemy needs to adjust his lead and shell drop a lot more between shots than with stronger turn ratio's, where the lead is more easily predictable.

What about mid-range combat, where you aren't bumping your enemy but are staying at a distance where you have options and space to maneuver?

To me all builds are stealth builds, and considering you like to take on multiple enemies at a time you have to consider it that way to since tanks are more dependent on DPS output than skill compared to infantry. It's a lot like the LA being a stealth class despite not having a direct stealth module available. Yes you can do all the tactics and strategies available in a Rival chassis, but the Racer chassis is more powerful at it. You move across the field of battle and you stand less chance of being seen, if you are seen you are already closer to the goal of your maneuver regardless of what your goal was, you also stand more chance of getting that shot in the back or surprising your enemies. Especially considering the situational awareness where you simply don't have 360 view and have to divide your attention on the world. You stand a higher chance of getting where you want before the situational awareness of your opponent tells him to check in your direction again.

Another advantage of speed: Moving means there's less chance someone is behind you. Strange as that may sound, but it works similar in infantry combat. A room you just passed is less likely to have enemies in it, and any enemies entering behind you at that point will be at a minimum distance from you. Also consider that the situational awareness of players tells them "here is the enemy base, here is the resistance coming from" and they will mostly look in that direction, this means that using your speed to get out of that center of attention is more easily beneficial, and any maneuvering you do afterwards will have to be outside of this center of attention to avoid being easily detected. Since enemies will not just focus their attention but also their front armor in the direction of the this center of attention you are more likely to stab them in the back. Speed also helps you circumvent terrain more easily since forwards motion is far better at hill climbing than any reverse mode (however strange that may seem from a real-world perspective). This means that you can cut through more terrain and have more options to get to the position you want and defeat your enemies.

The more distance there is between you and your opponent, the less Rival chassis matters. Racer however remains a strong choice no matter what you do, especially if you use the advantages of Racer's increased acceleration to get your advantage in CQC combat.

You don't turn faster, so good luck with that. Especially since any Maggy worth his salt would Boost on top, check which direction you start turning at while he's at it and then just drop off at your butt end anyway while turning around as he drops off (noobs only turn after they drop off). Then it's a matter of a short boost to get back behind it for the next shot and you are practically dead already, no need for another salvo in the back.

Unexpected encounters do make a large portion of the game, but you don't need maneuverability to counter it unless it's in real close CQC.

A Lib for instance usually "unexpectedly" attacks you from a direction somewhere in the front. Meaning you can use the increased acceleration to avoid him. A Lib doing a completely unexpected attack from behind screws you over regardless of Rival or Racer, you have little effect on the outcome once the TB starts firing. If you knew he was going to attack you beforehand you often have more than enough time to turn in a Racer, and the Racer has the speed and acceleration to leg it to a better position, for instance by trying to get underneath the Lib and force it to break off it's attack prematurely.

Magriders? I don't often have the displeasure of getting stabbed in the back by them. Mostly because I anticipate on the increased amount of routes Magriders can and will take to outflank the main NC/TR column (I love fighting alongside a TR/VS fight), so I go around even farther and then stab the Maggies in the back rather than the other way around. When I do get caught off-guard it's at range, since most terrain and my speed prevents Magriders to approach me unseen and hit me in CQC from behind. At range I have plenty of speed to get to cover and reset the engagement in my favor with repairs and repositioning, I also don't have any need for increased maneuverability since it won't win me any prizes while speed will reduce the amount of hits and amount of time I'm exposed.

You didn't stop.

Yes the magrider is not a tank it's more like 2/2 lightning if you meet in head to head any other mbt you are dead . And don't listen to BS that Lawiec or Deminegan saying they purely nc fanboys that don't know scrap about game and trying to confuse devs with their bs . and again to this BS that you can dodge shots because of strafe, it's biggest BS of them all. at range when you actually can dodge projectals you will notice that other faction mbt can dodge the same successfully as you + magrider have slowest projectile speed and they cant turn turret to check surrounding you need to turn whole tank to check what going on, on left or right or back. And same story to esf vs have the slowest ,the least maneuverable esf from all 3 faction, it just stupid i thinks devs have down syndrome if they can't see how stupidly imbalance things are. In short this game have terrible balance vs faction is the hardest to play with go easy mode like NC or TR . NC fanboys BS incoming in 3. 2. 1.

I

Theres a lot of repitition in there so ill ignore what ive already responded to in earlier posts.

You need to spewnd more time fighting other vehicles, tanks, harasser, aircraft. If you've never needed to instantly switch your direction and your armours then i really dont know what to say, its a fundamental part of tanking. Im not talking about making myself a target, you seem to be implying something here without context.

Thats exactly what im talking about doing, except with my maneuver my frontal armour is immediately facing the encrouching mag / prowler / lighning / harasser, all of which are quicker than me up that hill.

You were the one who mentioned 'advanced tactics' and I asked you what they were. You've not answered as far as i can tell.
Peek-a-boo is a valid tactic, is it not? Dont try and paint me as underskilled and sup-par for using a valid tactic, Ad Hominen?
And Yes Rival helps with peek-a-boo, that cannot be argued; which is why you attacked the tactic and not the point i was making.

Ive already explained how Rival is used in battle and in many more ways than 'o **** i messed up', why do you keep insisting that this is all its good for, did you read my posts? And on that point, whats with the implication that i mess up all the time? Is that more Ad Hominen; which ive been politely ignoring through our entire conversation until now?

^Which one is it, you seem to have contradicted yourself there?
And yes, i will repeat myself here, no mag can stay on my ****, ever.

10kph extra is not going to stop an enemy from seeing you. Imagine a gap of 100m, travelling at 66kph you pass this gap in about 5.5 seconds. Travelling at 55kph i pass it in about 6.5 seconds thats 1 second more. If 1 second less actually means something then 1.5 seconds less(your figures) to do a 180 means more.
And besides; jumping from cover to cover without being seen is largely a positioning and timing excercise and can absolutely be done with Rival. I could just as easily imply here that your poor awareness skills means you need to rely on more speed, rather than absolute timing to avoid detection? See how baseless that is?

If you're fighting some1 at anything other than close quarter and arnt using terrain and cover to your advantage your doing it wrong. I dont see how either helps with that, accept as i say for peek-a-boo. If you're caught in wide open terrain with a prowler looking at you mid range you've messed up, and neither chassis will help you there.
TBH, combined with shield and the Van's stock frontal armour, you are unlikely to loose a mid range battle unless your fighting multiple opponents. Nether chassis will help that.

Sorry but i completely disagree with your assumption on how often you encounter cqc fighting, even when being totally aware. As i said all vehicles tend to use stealth so unless you hear their engine (unlikely if its a mag, especially in a battle with other noise) you've got no idea it is around the next corner, how could you possibly know unless you manage to spot spam it though the cliff (which i believe to be exploiting, but i digress). Spend enough time flaking and driving inside enemy lines and you'll find them often enough.

If libs are attacking your frontal armour then they are seriously doing it wrong.
Most quality lib pilots will swoop in on your rear for TB hits, and if you're not dead finish with overhead dalton shots where you cant shot back. What kind of pilot flies directly towards a vanguard, when said van will take ~40% of its health in 1 hit?

Sorry but if you've never been caught off-guard by a mag you're either lying, or the mag drivers on your server are dog ****e, id tend to favour the former if i had to guess one.

Didnt i? O sorry i thought id pressed Reply after typing that, there must be some text that only you can read that you typed for me afterwards.
Or are you referring to me responding to your attack of me when replying to some1 else? You cant talk about some1, especially negatively and not expect them to reply.

Im not going to reply again. I feel all has been said that can be at this point and this is devolving into personal attacks, I will of course read what you reply, it'd be rude not to, but unless i feel really compelled i wont be responding.
It really is down to preference. I was simply trying to convey my own personal preference on the matter.
My apologies if it appeared snidey or overly argumentative.

It's an Eldar grav tank.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=E...X&ved=0ahUKEwif3NeDsJ7PAhXoBcAKHbozA98Q_AUIBQ