The Ultimate Thread for calling out the flawed arguments used when talking about C4 Vs. MBT's

You can't put a magazine into one of those if you're in the air on a terminal run about to drop some C-4 on a clueless Sunderer etc etc.

I don't think the Spitfire is OP. I just don't like the sonsof*****es

Thats 200 resources per try

If anything spots and shoots you you just wasted your time

Especially when youre literally driving a bomb

KPH is probably the worst stat you could use in this case as KPH is calculated as time spent with weapon equipped vs kills earned.

As soon as you get in a tank, the timer starts ticking. Traveling between bases, etc all counts to lower your KPH and there is no real way to "Pad" it during any kind of downtime.

With C4 the "Time equipped" is only counted when you have it in your active primary slot. (And most people tend to run around with their primary / secondary out, not C4 ).


That being said

C4 KPH ~60

Lightning HE ~45
Lightning HEAT ~28
Lightning AP ~25


Magrider 18/20/39 (AP/Heat/HE)
Vanguard 18/19/35
Prowler 25/25/47



What I posted is probably the most useful stat you can get with tanks in that you are basically looking at kills per resource investment . If the average players can usually kill half to a full squad of players per tank pull, then C4, AV turrets, Tank Mines, Rocket Launchers and other Vehicles don't really seem to be a problem. Given that C4 is only one of many ways to die in a tank it is even less of a problem than people would have you believe.

The real issue people have is a very ironic one. They hate instantly dying to things that they didn't see coming. The irony of course comes from that is exactly the game play they inflict on infantry sitting 200-300 M from a base shelling it.

Spitfire has a faster TTK vs Infantry than a Gatekeeper.

I slightly take back what I said. KPH can be used to determine resource effiency.

So lightning HE has a KPH of 45 (or 1 kill every 1.33 minutes or every 1 minute 20 seconds) and a KDR of 11.2 meaning the average life of the player per pull is around 14.9333 minutes. (This is the lowest number possible, assuming players don't get out to repair their tank as that time doesn't count against KPH but does earn them resources).

Players earn 50 resources every 60 seconds (with no boosts / membership). Meaning average players pulling HE Lightning will be able to chain pull the vehicle with a gain of 396 resources per average pull. (746 resources gained per life - 350 cost of lightning)

So the Math is basically (Minutes per Kill) * (Kills Per Death) = Vehicle Lifetime (minutes per death)

(Lifetime) * (50 Resources per Minutes) = Resource Gain

(Resource gain) - (Resource cost) = Net Gain.

Lightning Heat - Net gain of 254 resources.
Lightning AP - Net gain of 133 resources.

Magrider AP - Net Gain - 300 Resources.
Magrider HEAT - Net Gain 607 Resources ****NOTE***
Magrider HE - Net Gain 430 Resources

Vanguard AP - Net Gain 341 Resources
Vanguard HEAT - Net Gain 473 Resources
Vanguard HE - Net Gain 385 Resources

Prowler AP - Net gain 222 Resources
Prowler HEAT - Net Gain 414 Resources
Prowler HE - Net Gain 469.08 Resources

***NOTE*** Halfway through doing these calculations I realized the average lifespan of many of these vehicles surpasses the 750 resource cap and best case you would have to assume that you would start with 0 resources after a pull. While this removes some of the potency of these numbers, what you can take from it on a much more basic level is :

For the average unboosted player, over the course of their "character lifetime" vehicles will pay for themselves and allow you to kill upwards of half a dozen to a full squad of enemies. (This means for every time you might get instantly C4'ed there is another life will you will farm for 30 minutes without dying, stuff like that. It all evens out in the end to a net positive.)

Picking one data point from MAXes (because I don't feel like doing more work over lunch) The "Best" Max Weapon (Dual Blueshifts) are a net loss of 166 resources per average MAX pull.

Lol. You know...this shows how bad it is, but still not as bad as the invisible flash bomber. Thank you for posting this.

It's so "bad" even a non-cloaker class can do it.

To be fair, you're running Vehicle Stealth (max rank?).

I never demanded that KPH HAD to be used, especially not as a stand-alone stat. In case you didn't understand my post, or what my intention was: I wanted more comprehensive data analysis before drawing conclusions. Drawing conclusions based solely on KDR (KDR when it comes to C4, really????) was plain silly, as is drawing conclusions based upon KPH only. I wanted a combination of stats to prove a point with additional thought process showing WHY each stat is used and the fallacies of using each stat. Just posting numbers (that alone show nothing) is worthless.

I'd argue that using solely KDR as data is just as worthless as only using KPH, and I can explain why if you really need it. But just using a combination of stats to describe a complex scenario is what I wanted.

Also, any idea why the "Reply" button isn't working for me? Having to use the manual

every time is rather annoying.

lol, stop it you.

He has stopped alright But not by his choice I bet...

Reply worked fine for me. And the number of stats you use depends on the point you are trying to make. For something like "What makes a good infantry player" You will probably look at KDR/KPH/Acc/HSR/LPK/Medkit Deaths/etc.

To counter the point that "C4 is this huge problem for tanks and should be nerfed or tanks buffed" you only really need to show that Tanks are killing much more than they are dying (to any source, not just C4). The fact that I threw in C4 KDR was just there to say "Here it is" but every (tongue in cheek) point I made after that was based around the notion that what to Tankers want to do? Kill an average of 2 squads per pull? 3? A platoon? etc.

You kind of latched on to the fact that I put the C4 KDR up there and (are trying for some reason) to use that to discredit what I have said about Tanks in general. I could have put the KDR of the beamer in my post (for whatever reason) but it wouldn't take from the validity of what I said about tanks.

And then I went and used KDR / KPH to show that even if it sucks to get C4'ed in a tank, chances are over your character lifetime you'll usually live long enough to simply pull another. So when you say " I wanted a combination of stats to prove a point with additional thought process showing WHY each stat is used" I suddenly feel like we are dealing with a simple reading comprehension problem because that is literally exactly what I did.

"It sucks to get C4'd in a tank". It's not so much that the act of getting c4'd is frustrating as how it currently functions and how powerful it is.

It should 1. Not do 80% of a MBT's health per stick- This is extreme overkill and means even if I took a single tank shell to my front armor I can be one brick instagibbed. This should be brought down to 49-50% so that you always need a full 2 sticks on a MBT that isn't heavy smoking.

2. C4 should be required to land directly on the tank to do massive damage- It feels pretty lame when I catch a LA flying over me while I'm in the middle of a tank fight, I back up, and the C4 lands on the ground infront of my tank still doing 60-80% of my health. you should not be rewarded for missing a tank with C4. It's pretty dang ridiculous you can miss with both c4 up to 4 meters and still get the kill.

3. The counters tanks have to C4 are pathetic compared to that of moving Sunderers and that needs to change as they are both heavily armored crew vehicles- Directional armors on a MBT are for the most part trash, they need to be meshed into one and given a sort of blockade armor like the Sunderer has.

Proximity radar is trash for the most part and doesn't even start to be very helpful against C4 LA's till max rank after hundreds of certs. Scout Radar gives you a 200 meter range and is a public radar, prox radar can't be seen by anyone other than the crew and only has 25% of that range. It should be buffed to 100 meters to give you a fair amount of time to react to fast moving threats approaching you from above and to make it so that even at rank 1 prox radar starts becoming useful.

So I went onto Oracle and I couldn't find a KDR of the weapons, but rather a KPU. Is this what you used, or how did you determine the KDR? I'm mostly curious

When I checked C4, it had a KPU of no less than 2 90% of the time, which was why I was curious.

Hrmpf, must be due to some weird browser settings or something then. Rather annoying at least!

Using the KDR was completely irrelevant, and smelled like stat fishing TBH. I wouldn't bring it forward without a clear indication of it being used as a joke, more or less. But that's just me.

I never wrote anything about what you have written about tanks in general. Please don't claim I'm saying things which I'm clearly not, as that is a poor way to argue. When you started using a combination of the stats, the analysis automatically improved. Just please don't list stats that are completely irrelevant for a discussion based upon stats, even if you find them "fun".

You also don't see deaths ocurring outside the tank (which, for me, are higher than the amounts of deaths inside a tank), heavily skewing the KDR shown to include kills per death than it should be. Just like you commented on the time spent reparing doesn't count, this is also a very important source of bias you need to include in your analysis. This kind of 1-sided analysis is also what I reacted upon.

I don't think many people besides the OP claim that it is a "huge" problem. Please don't exaggerate the issue at hand. Also, yes, those data can give a description of the current status of things, but in order for that illustration to be descriptive (and therefore relevant) you need to consider the factors that can skew the numbers you are using, instead of just blindly using numbers (and only correcting for factors that skew the results in a manner not favoring your conclusions). Why would you include the comment on the time spent outside the tank repairing, but not the deaths occurring outside the tank for instance? That seems heavily biased to me.

Sure, if you have corrected the numbers for factors heavily skewing them. If you don't even comment upon them, I would consider the stats practically worthless.

Dasanfall has an entry for weapons by average KDR (second to last column on linked table). I can not myself say how they calculate it and verify the authenticity of the number.

Great, thanks! I trust their calculations don't worry, I was just wondering if he had done some sort of manual calculation of the Oracle stats in order to obtain KDR. I'm sure the datamining done by dasanfall is accurate as well. At least it was back when I still used it

#ClawsOutPenaltyBox

B....BR......

BRAINSSSSSSsssssssssssss!!!

Oh sorry. Ummm...what were we talking about?

Wait just one minute...

Are you telling me that we used to be able to stockpile C4? The OP talks about saving 20-40 bricks.

Oh. My. God.

Other threads, actually