The Ultimate Thread for calling out the flawed arguments used when talking about C4 Vs. MBT's

Introduction

I've participated in many C4 debate threads since the creation of Forumside, and there are several arguments brought up by C4 users (typically LA fans) that are false/flawed arguments and I'm making this thread to call out the most blatant ones. There will be solid, detailed, and coherent points brought up so please take the time to read them before posting.

Arguments I see being made that are flawed/false

1. Using C4 to take out a MBT is expensive, or 200 infantry resources is more expensive/valuable than 450 mechanized resources.

2. You have to be within melee range or point blank to C4 a MBT

3. Taking out a MBT as infantry is "high risk"

4. Just Keep Moving

5. It's always the fault of the driver

6. It's an investment/ expensive to cert into

7. Just use proximity radar

8. Get a secondary gunner, and you'll see them coming

Why are they flawed/false arguments?

1. Taking out a MBT with C4 is expensive and/or 200 Infantry > 450 Mechanized

a. First off if you're going to complain that taking out a MBT with C4 is expensive you might as well stop using C4, because MBT's literally represents one of the most XP filled actions in the game. Killing a MBT nets 500 XP for the vehicle alone and another 100-200 XP for the people inside. Taking out a deployed Sunderer only nets 500 XP so in terms of a destroyable target the MBT literally represents the most consistently high XP target which can be C4'd, and a much better payoff than 1-2 infantry kills or a Max kills.

b.When you run out of mechanized resources you literally can't use a tank and thus cannot play as a tanker. A lack of C4 or grenades or medkits does not result in you being unable to get a kill in any infantry class or make any infantry class without those items useless. You can't be a Tanker without mechanized resources, but you can be an infantry without infantry resources thus making mechanized resource far more crucial for a tanker than infantry resources for an infantry player.

c. You can stockpile 40 sticks of C4 while you can not stockpile any vehicles. This alone should put the argument to rest, because when your faction is dominating on a continent and resources are coming in at 150-200+ resources every 5 minutes you can take heavy advantage of that and stockpile. You cannot stockpile vehicles, making mechanized resources that much more important whether resources are plentiful or scarce.

d. Using an ESF as a taxi to take out a MBT with C4 and leaving the MBT with no way to defend itself also does not some how even the odds resource wise. What I mean is that 250 air + 200 infantry =/= 450 mechanized in terms of value unless you were a pilot and actually sacrificing air playtime. However typically the case would be that you're playing as infantry, want to take out a specific tanker or tanks, are maxed out on air resources since you're not constantly in the air, and thus those air resources represent a consistently topped off pool of air resources. C4ing a MBT via air drop also represents something you can try 3 times before running out of air resources since ESF's only cost 250 resources.

2. You have to be point blank / within melee range of a MBT to C4 it

a. That would make C4 completely balanced if that was truly the case, because you would actually have to run up to a MBT. However LA's with jetpacks can regularly fly above 50 meters and well above the turret angle and line of sight of both the driver and gunner of the MBT even if they are in 3rd person. LA's can also jump off from cliffs, landing pads of towers, bio labs, and the roofs of tech plants to travel long distances. This allows them to field instagib ranged attacks that comes from high above and which can occur within 100's of meters of elevation whether natural or man made in the form of buildings.

b. The most common way a MBT is C4'd is by a LA, it's also the infantry class that normally kills me with it, and the class which doesn't require you to be point blank to a MBT. If you had to be on the ground to throw C4 that would be different and actually make C4 against MBT's more balanced as previously stated. However since you can literally fly over a MBT in the middle of the air when said MBT isn't even immediately around trees, or buildings, or rocks it completely nullifies this argument. An aware tanker will typically not get C4'd by an infantry running up to them, it will be by the LA flying directly over head.

3. Taking out a MBT with C4 is "high risk".

a. It's actually very forgiving and low risk if you are a LA.... If you mess up and die before you get to your target you're faced with 0 cool down and 0 resource cost since C4 doesn't cost you anything until you throw it and spawning/dying as infantry costs you nothing. If you mess up and lose a tank you can't be revived and neither can your tank, you're faced with a 450 resource loss, and a cooldown. Furthermore as brought up previously, you can stockpile C4 giving you between 20-40 "Close but no cigar" attempts with C4 where you throw 1-2 sticks out but then die in the 3 seconds it takes to blow up the C4. If you fail with a MBT you can be waiting up to a half an hour ,with low resources coming in, to pull a MBT again.

b. Running across a battlefield on foot represents a big threat, particularly in a congested battlefield, since people are looking for threats on the ground and shooting mostly at eye level. This again is where the Light Assault avoids risk, because they fly above people's LOS and where people are not expecting to see infantry. People often fail to admit or just overlook the fact that most people don't look up for threats when their most common threat is on the ground.So no, flying through the air does not represent a high risk compared to running on the ground and actually represents the least risky way to get C4 on a MBT out of any infantry class. This is precisely why I can be in the middle of a courtyard, away from the buildings and roofs, surrounded by allied infantry, and still get C4'd because people don't look up and because a LA can fly above people's normal ground focused LOS.

c. Lastly if you miss and the C4 is on the ground, even infront of the tank where its armor is the strongest, you can still net the kill. While not only cheesy it represents just another example which lessens the risk because you can completely miss the tank and net the kill through splash damage.

4. Just keep moving, your tank moves faster than I can run or fly

a. I find this argument to be particularly disingenuous, or people's general knowledge of tanks in this game to be horribly lacking, because most tanks are far more accurate when still and thus are encouraged to be still rather than moving. Furthermore for consistently accurate shots to be on target at a medium range requires the tank to be still if the tank is not a Magrider. Also keep in mind that 3rd person firing is not as reliable like being still is for firing at targets at medium range or shooting moving targets.

This is even more so the case with the Prowler which has two shots to account for, and which has a special ability which can only be used when locked into place and has a fairly lengthy undeploy timer that is at least equal too if not greater than the time is takes to deploy and activate 2 sticks of C4 which around 3 seconds. Until tanks have turret stabilization the "keep" moving argument really only partially applies to the Vanu, and even they don't have true turret stabilization either so they benefit from moving slow to make more accurate shots as well.

b. In addition there are many times that moving isn't a option when you're in a big battle. Anyone who has had a fair amount of experience in a tank should know the feeling of being behind a rock or hill that barely covers the tanks with several AV weapons primed and ready to obliterate you the moment you try to poke your turret out. Due to the low TTK of tanks in large battles it's often necessary to find cover to be next to and stick next to that cover in order to push up with infantry without dying, unfortunately this also makes tanks prime targets for LA that can fly directly over this cover.

5. It's always the fault of the Driver

a. There is little to no way to react to or account for LA's coming from the sky, and no way to react to C4 coming from above the LOS of the driver and gunner when in a fight. People will often cite that sitting under landing pants, right next to cliffs, trees, buildings, and the spawn room is bad and should be avoided. Well no kidding, and any decent tanker already knows not to do that. Once again though a light assault with a decently certed jet pack can come from hundreds of meters away from these locations and C4 a tank anyways.

Many of the C4 tank deaths seen in the following videos are next to impossible to avoid, and the tanks would likely die even with proximity radar equipped. Areas like South East Indar, or any location with significant elevational differences or tall buildings offer prime locations for a LA to merely jump and then drift into areas completely devoid of cover where a MBT would typically be safe to then kill said MBT from above the LOS and proximity radar of the MBT. Using a cheap throw away ESF or a beacon with just some random pub to form a squad with then only expands the repeatably of this maneuver.

This displays the repeatable nature of C4ing tanks, sometimes more than one at the same time, from above.

This displays how if a LA really wants to get rid of a tank from above using a throw away ESF it isn't high risk.

6. C4 is expensive to cert into

a. When people bring this up I wonder if they even tank, because to have a competitive certed tank with even a single certed loadout can cost over 9000 certs. In fact lets quickly analyze my personal choice for a Prowler's fully certed Anti-Tank loadout to know how expensive tanking can be.

Primary- AP Turret: 750 certs,

Maxed reload speed: 2250 certs

2X Zoom: 701 certs

Max ammo capacity: 2,441 certs

Subtotal: 6,142 certs

Secondary- Halberd: 1000 certs

Maxed reload speed: 2,250

2X Zoom: 701 certs

Maxed Ammo capacity: 2,441

Subtotal: 6,392 certs

Utility: Anchor mode Maxed:1,800 certs

Defense: Proximity Radar: 1,200 certs

Chassis: Racer 3: 700 certs.

Subtotal: 3,700 certs

Grand total: 16,234 certs

7. Just use Proximity Radar

a. As someone who has tanked over 400 hours, has proximity radar fully certed, and uses it a lot if there is a player who wants you dead they can easily kill you because the 50 meter max radius doesn't cut it for LA players that come in from above 50 meters of you.

b. Proximity radar is not a true counter to C4 like Blockade armor is to C4 or how Mine-guard is to mines. You have to be paying attention to the radar constantly, and looking away for few seconds to engage another tank or Sunderer with your gunner helping you kill said tank can easily end up with you getting C4'd. This isn't even bringing up the fact that there is a definite tradeoff to pull Proximity radar over vehicle stealth or NAR. For instance when deciding to pull a 2/2 AV loadout to hunt tanks Stealth to get the jump on tanks or NAR to increase survivablility is typically more helpful than proximity radar.

8. Get a Secondary Gunner

a. While it's useful having an extra set of eyes, that set of eyes has a very similar limited LOS that a Light Assault can easily fly over. In addition a Gunner is also there to help the tank in tank fights and when engaging vehicles a good gunner should be helping you shoot the tank in front of you. It's very similar to the points brought up for proximity radar and again while have a gunner helps, a Light Assault can easily bypass all of these counters by flying in from above.

Conclusion

In conclusion there are many flawed arguments being used when people try to defend how C4 interacts with MBT's. My responses to the points brought up at the very least sound points, and many are facts. I personally think either proximity radar needs to be buffed to 100 meters so tanks can actually react to LA's coming from above them, or all the directional armors being taken away and converted into composite armor which would act like Blockade armor on a Sunderer. For those saying go out and C4 a couple of tanks, the video evidence is there for how simple it can be, and there are tankers who offered suggestions for this thread which have well over a 1000 kills with C4 that share a similar opinion as my own. Feel free to leave a response if it's constructive, and thank you for taking the time to read this thread.

P.S Tank Security Dog will be present in this thread

Tanks should be covering each other though, surely? Plus supporting infantry should be defending their armour if they're in close terrain (yes this includes narrow valleys & defiles that LAs can ambush you from).

In my opinion it's a good thing that the infantry have something that is so potent against tanks - that threat needs to be there in order to deter tanks from just going wherever they like with no need to think where an infantry threat might come from.

Also, strikes me that tanks would be a lot tougher to C4 if they weren't sitting on their butts farming spawn-points all day every day. Mobility seems to be key here, although such behaviour is not going to change without some alteration of the cert gain and/or base capture mechanics.

Can't speak for the LAs, but as an HA I've found pretty much the most exhilirating & heart-pounding experience in PS2 is sneaking up to a tank and C4ng it to death. Seems like most of the time I get shot just before triggering the detonation XD

Holy Stew that is a long post!

I agree with the buff to proxy, its a bit rubbish at the moment and it would better define it; I also think it needs to grant the driver/gunner more detailed information, such as if a target is above your current height.

You'll find that I brought up and addressed your points in the thread either with the main points or within thesubpoints, please take the time to read the thread.

Also keep in mind that myself and the tankers that made this thread are not just "sitting on our butts farming spawn points all day" that's more likely to be taxi cab infantry players hoping in tanks. Infantry have so many ways to counter tanks outside of C4, but that is not what this thread is about.

Indeed... Your counter argument to "suck it" is both refined and the words of a intellectual..

Make C4 a deployable

Problem solved

I'm bored so I'll do all the points quickly

1) those 450 resources will do hella more damage than those two bricks of C4 which will only kill one tank if plopped on properly
2) Without that jetpack though the LA is just an engineer with no tools, and they've already been nerfed to the point of near uselessness were it not for their AV capabilities
3) There's a lot more on a battlefield than just a tank and a LA to deem the mission high risk, and even if it was just the two that's still dangerous as hell for the squishy guy outside a vehicle
4) That's not a problem with LAs and C4, that's a problem with tanks. They should be able to keep shooting accurately on the move even if it has to be an additional cert option
5) Unless you're in a traffic jam, or close quarters (two places you would ideally want to avoid at all costs anyway) it is still the driver's fault
6) 16K certs is only for people that take tanking more seriously than anything else, and even a stock tank can do some considerable damage. A LA though is almost entirely useless until those 2 bricks are purchased
7) If they're hovering above the 50m your proxy rader needs for LA, then avoid places that are 50m high and available for LAs to jump off of. Pick a fight on your terms if they're that dangerous
8) ...okay that's all nice but that secondary gunner is still gonna be more helpful than your tunnel vision

The ability to kill tanks instantly worked much better when the tanks were dangerous and cheaper. It used to be only 250 mechanized got you a main battle tank. Losing it wasn't absolutely crippling and the arguments on cost/gain in terms of destructibility worked.

However, the game has progressed. Every class now has an option to damage armor, even if the infiltrator can only plink. Furthermore, they can survive anything but a direct hit with a tank shell, further protected by flak armor. Medics are even more impervious, should you know how to elongate your life. I've used the regen and maxed flak armor to dance around tanks while they fire at me in a futile attempt to A.) predict where I am about to go and not waste 2-3 seconds reloading and B.) simply failing to kill me as I shrug off and heal up damage until I either escape, the tank is destroyed, or they land the hit.

Furthermore, AV in the game has progressed, with additions, buffs, tweaks, and additions. ESRL have their characteristics and are powerful in the right hands. This does include the striker, as it dishes out enormous damage should it hit. AV turrets, hornet missiles, wraith flashes, what have you.

Additionally, the game has matured. 700 certs used to be a large investment, back in the day. But XP gain has gone up and players have more progressed toons, which means most everyone save the newest of players, can get C4 within a short time frame. This is worsened by the plain fact that there is no downside to having C4. With the proliferation of medics, no medkits equipped isn't always crippling, though it was a downside (however slight). The addition of the regeneration implant functionally negates the need for medkits save for in intense fights. C4 also is a 'does everything' weapon, effective against anything it can be deployed against. Used as a makeshift grenade, trap, max killer, and tank killer. Everyone had it. Everyone still has it.

Tanks have also gained several nerfs to their lethality, which was necessary due to those that flagrantly abused the system and simply farmed infantry. I would daresay that the most dedicated of tankers have no real interest in such thing as 'farming', in the sense of kills for the sake of kills. I, as a professional tanker and being in the top 50 most kills with Titan HEAT (would be more but I swapped to AP to auraxium it), pull my tank not to 'kill all the dudes' but to fulfill objectives. Kill sunderers, kill enemy armor, priority targets. The vanguard can't really farm, and I was okay with that, because that is not the point.

Which leads me to the real crux of the issue: tanks have nothing to do but kill infantry, when you get down to it. Suppressing spawns, eliminating sunderers, breaking lines. It's all killing. Yeah, it's a FPS game, so it's sensible, but it's lead to the negative spiral we have now. You want certs for driving a tank? Gotta kill the infantry. There is nothing else to really do.

This is why I've pushed several times for the addition of secondary objectives that tanks can fulfill to earn their keep. A good example might be the reimplementation of dome shields with ground based hardened generators. Tanks have the firepower to take them out, so they can do that rather then focusing on the spawn room. The enemy wishes them to stay up so they bring armor of their own. Tanks are fighting tanks for a reason, not just because the zerg met your zerg.

It's the same with ANTs, which is why I have hopes for the resource revamp. Having a target that armor can rally to protect or eliminate will relieve pressure off the need for farming infantry. The more of these things added the better. Then you can heavily restrict XP earned for killing infantry. Only 25 points per kill? The farmers would move on, leaving the people who want to tank to do so, and then they can be buffed because they wouldn't be exclusively aiming at infantry.

Main problem with this assumption is that nobody in a FPS will look up unless they notice a threat is above them. With the throwaway ESF parajumping C4 Fairies, nobody will even look up until the fairy has taken a **** on a nearby tank. And nobody is going to dedicate themselves to watching the skies for a throwaway ESF parajumping C4 Fairy.

*Roaring Verviedian Applause*

i just took a quick glance but i think i can invalidate alot of your opinions:
You are Infantry, not a Tanker, you are Infantry inside a Tank. The only difference to other Infantry is, that you sit in a tank that ENHANCES your power. there is not a single disadvantage for using a tank.

also: reload times. Prowler has the shortest reload times so he is kinda and exception, but every vehicle with a manned secondary has ALWASYS downtime in which the gunner can check it's surroundings. eg: Halberd, 1sec target acquisition, shot2 sec looking around, rinse and repeat.

People are looking at the sky because they're on AA duty - esp in the larger battles where the OP is complaining about how he has no room to manouver his tank. I've shot plenty of C4 fairies out of the sky with a Sundy's Basilisk or with my HA. Also, LAs being high up might get them above their opponents' LOS if everyone was right on the front-line, but they're not - there are usually people moving up to the front, hanging further back etc who *can* see the LAs - even if they're not in a position to gun them down they can at least spot them for friendlies.

1. Those 450 resources can be instantly gibbed by infantry AV in big battles, or by a single Liberator on the way to battle. I highly doubt every person who pulls a tank wreaks havoc, and not everyone who pulls a tank gets even a single kill. That arguement goes both ways, and I can use it as easily as you can. Furthermore if I lose my tank before I get to the battlefield or my target I get no refund, if you die with C4 in your hands before you get to the target the C4 is refunded at no cost to you.

2. Am I arguing to nerf the Jet pack? No... and the LA is not useless outside of AV capabilities because as I discussed they can get to high locations where people don't look up and shoot them there. I'm not arguing C4 with LA isn't a powerful tool or to take it away from the LA, I'm saying the way C4 works against a MBT is not imbalanced and I suggested two changes in the conclusion.

3. There is nothing high risk for a 0 resource cost infantry with no cool down, and the pay off 500-700 resouces seems like a pretty good deal since all you're risking is 2 bricks from a stockpile of up to 40 C4. Seems pretty minor to me.

4. I'm just bringing up flawed arguments LA's and C4 fans make, as I already know tanks could benefit tremendously from turret stabilization but they don't so that's beside the point and the developers have never indicated once that it will ever occur. Since tanks are forced to sit still in many instances this makes the entire argument of "just keep moving" completely invalid.

5. No it's not, most of the tanks who died in the video did nothing inherently wrong that caused them to get C4'd other than to exist on a battlefield. Many of them were also behind allied lines or in allied territory.

6. A stock tank can cause considerable damage if you're going up a bunch of pubs that refuse to fire back, if you go pull a stock Vanguard with no certs in it and try to tell me it's going to cause considerable damage in a massive fight where there are people aware of their surroundings that's laughable. Stock tanks get ripped to shreds by certed tanks and are easily dispatched by veteran tankers. I showed the certs because most people who bother to deal with the arguements of infantryside players and C4 fans typically are serious about tanking, and aren't just in the game to pull them as the occasional armored taxi cab.

7. Did you not read the thread in full? A LA can come from 50 meters above from literally anywhere in the map via an ESF and 100's of meters away from buildings or elevation. Are you suggesting tankers avoid large portions of the map on every continent and that people who have the SE Warpgate just not pull tanks at all? Sounds unreasonable......

8. Tunnel Vision has nothing to do with a LA coming from above your maximum possible LOS of both the gunner and driver, read the thread before commenting further.

Sitting inside a tank is the easiest way to go on huge, uninterrupted kill streaks in this game. If some of those end by C4 I don't really see what the problem is.

Given that I mostly see tanks sitting 100+ metres away from bases just shelling indiscriminately - I have zero sympathy for any killed with C4

btw, what do you think would really happen with your proposed composite armor? would people use it so they can ignore Infantry and focus only on tanks? haha lol no. competent AV tanks would still run Stealth for the most part, the only ones using Composite armor would be farmers shelling a spawnroom, so they can ignore their surrounding even more, as 2 Bricks of C4 will just be a minor inconveniance that requires them to collect the certs from the now defenseless Light Assault and then continue farming.
you show exceptional incapabilities at analyzing the game.

Look wise guy, if you think you can invalidate a lot of the most veteran Tanker's opinions in the game (and not just mine) then do so. Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk. You want to have an intellectual debate with me, than address my numerically ordered points and I'll respond. There is no disadvantage of using a tank? I'll name several 1. Much larger hit box 2. Can be locked on to. 3. Has a lenghty cool down. 3. Is the highest XP target in the game making it a big target. 4. Cannot be revived once destroyed. 5. Cannot change loadouts without a 450 resource cost. Also: If the target is moving you have to follow the target and not look around if you want to land the next shot as soon as possible, if you're wasting precious seconds checking for C4 fairies that could very well cost you the tank fight. In addition as I also mentioned, checking your surroundings will not cover directly above you where LA's come from, please read the thread before posting further.

Let me first say that I agree.

They should remove all armors and give all Tanks blockade armor or something like it.

However I do not feel like this will solve the Tank vs Infantry problem at all. However that is a subject for another thread.

Most of the time being C4ed is not really a problem unless they drop form Galaxies or ESFs. to C4 your tank, which people will do because I see it all the time.

I just hate how a tank has to worry about every class but the infiltrator(although there is a funny explosive bolt video I've heard of.)
Medics and Heavies should not really have C4 and LAs and Engis are the only ones that should have it. Heavies have their rocket launchers and Medics should not be fighting armor because it is not their job.

Infantry have plenty of ways to combat Tanks outside of C4 and the only reason tanks don't die is because they are forced to the fringes of battles or to camping spawn rooms.

Anyway, as an infantry player, I find tanks to be between a rock and a hard place at the current moment. With Libs being the rock and Infantry being the hard place.

Did you lose your E key? if there is a situation that gives me trouble in a tank that i could solve with Infantry, i'll press my magical IWIN button and play Infantry.

And i'm still repeating that LA+ESF doesn't exist. thats something that you seem to experiance when farming. The time and effort it takes to execute that move are so much waste, that it boggles my mind any sentient being would ever consider it. you spend upwards of a minute of seeking out and destroying a single target, that did not pose any threat to you, because if it did, it would be in reach of an easier easier way to take it out. the closest thing ever happing ingame that involves Aircraft and C4 is 4 C4 strapped on an ESF to take out a Lib/Gal.

also you are basicly admitting that while chasing an enemy tank you get tunnelvision. cause while you are on the move you'll never die to C4. but probably to the 5 tanks the enemy is fleeing to if you don't notice them.

i guess situational awareness for full time MBT drivers is really pisspoor. probably the reason you can't play Infantry, where "everything is out to kill you" is not just a phrase you repeat to get some attention, but a fact.

This problem is about discussing flawed arguements that people often use against tanks when discussing C4. Dying to C4 itself is not the problems. You can go on huge uninterrupted kill streaks with a Liberator or as Max with a pocket Engineer in a Bio Lab but that's beside the point.

What would happen? Tanks who want to participate on the front lines and help push up with infantry could do so without being instagibbed by C4 at any moment would happen, and people could get in big battles to destroy Sunderers and tanks without a LA abruptly getting in the way and ending their tank on full health. Shelling the spawn room is normally done by infantry using tanks as Taxi's and that will happen composite armor or not, spawn farming happening right now without it regardless so it's a weak point to make.

LA are infantry just like any other class, and they are in no way defenseless. Infantry in this game are never defenseless against tanks as they are constantly supplied with 0 resource cost AV weapons which do damage by simply looking at a vehicle and a missile tracks said vehicle, infantry can instantly negate 50% of splash damage through Flak armor. 2 C4 landing on a tank would never be just a minor inconvenience, it would still cause a full health take to go repair or a smoking tank to die.

I'll await you posting back counter arguments in numerical order to the main points in the thread.