Oh yea, it's that time of the day... Magrider threads!

fixed forward turret, sngle changes with every bump in the road as you Try and strafe while aiming, cant see sht behind you or to the side so you smack Everything and tk all your friends just trying to maneuver, the rounds move SOOOOOO SLOWWWWWWW, and the tank is slow too..
i use to love my maggy
now it just feels like a cert present to the enemy

Have you looked at the usage patterns for the two tanks? Look at the average BR difference for the Magrider, it is far higher than the Vanguard.

If you then compare the users and playtime between All / Q4 / BR100 you then see this:

Q4 unique users & playtime of total:
Mag = 62.0% & 62.2%
Van = 52.3% & 50.8%

BR 100 unique users & playtime of total:
Mag = 32.8% & 34.8%
Van = 26.1% & 25.8%

As you can see, the proportion of AP Vanguard playtime that is by a BR 100 player is less than 3/4 of the AP Magrider, so the average Magrider player is a much higher BR. In short, no **** that the average AP Magrider driver does better than the average Vanguard driver.

Nobody usually argues that the Vanguard isn't the best tank for fighting other vehicles, especially tanks, the argument is usually that the Vanguard has a proportionally tougher time against infantry than the other tanks.

I always see posts like the OP as YoutTubers with games they don't really spend a lot of time with, but a lot of advertisement money pouring in to compensate for a lack of commitment at any given time.

This is like that.
You either gonna get floaters or you're going to get sinkers; It's not the toilets' fault.

Who said anything about making the saron cqc?

A beam of death doesn't have to be cqc.

For the mag to be competitive the strafe speed needs to be increased now that TR has the "balanced according to TR" Gatekeeper.

As it stands to dodge Gatekeeper shots you would need to be about 500m away with a inhuman reaction time of 0 seconds with 0 lag with the shots rendering.

Realistically its 600m.

Now try hitting something with a Saron and a VPC at 600m assuming it renders.

See Id argue with the harrasser tank statement. The mag is the slowest tank of the three. A single barricade sundy can charge down and punish a mag easily.

This is a classic example were there is a hole in an arsenal. The VS need a bruiser tank. Id like a mag B were the main gun is on a turret controlled by the gunner. uprated armour, lower acceleration and less climbing ability.

See, like I said, the Magrider tries to be two things at once, and then it fails at both of them. It tries to be a tank, being slower and more heavily armored, but it also tries to be a harasser, relying on mobility rather then firepower. But since it's slow, it can't dodge, and since it doesn't have firepower, it can't go toe to toe with other tanks.

So you are implying that I have no experience with the game I play?

I have played this game since 2013. I have hundreds of hours in the Magrider alone. I have played with friends on the Vanguard and the Prowler. I have talked with TR and NC mains.

I'd like to think that my opinion is somewhat justified.

You need two of those, one for the day hours and one for the night hours.

At 3:00 AM there's always a thread about Battle Islands. Around 7 in the morning, you can wake up to the sweet sighs of a "Nerf C4 thread", then about 2 hours later, after the argument has somehow both devolved and then escalated to a "Nerf Liberator" thread, someone will come around and counter with a "Buff Liberator" thread. Of course no one gets anywhere anyway in the end, and so we all settle down at around noon for a good ol' "Why are the NC UP/OP" thread. Make sure you remember that 1:00 AM complaint about the leadership of the TR made by some drunk TR outfit leader.

Imo, the Magrider is made for Hossin, can do good on Amerish and overall perfect for sneaky flanking.
Playing against the other MBTs in other conditions or places is hardcore.

The Magrider will never change, they have not made any good change to it since 2 years... I do not bother to complain anymore.

Can I see the source and how you got those % numbers? I feel that these numbers are wrong, but as I don't understand them they might be very right. Without the way you calculated them there is nothing to say about these numbers.
I feel that they are wrong because there are often more uniques for the AP vanguard, but as they survive less long the Magrider has nearly the same time played.

1. Look at the monthly stats (average of past 30 days) for "MBT primary weapons" http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/
2. Select all BR + Q4 + BR 100
3. Copy and paste into Excel
4. For both the "uniques" and the "playtime (h)" column divide the values for the Q4 and BR100 by the "all BR" value then multiply by 100.

This does fit if you look at the "average" BR for the weapon user (far right column) you can see that the average BR of the Titan AP is only 75.6 compared to 83.0 for the FPC. The exact percentage values will have changed since I made the calculation, but going by the average BR difference, it won't have changed by much.

Whilst I would agree with the 'ease of use' point, i'd have to strongly disagree with the sentiment that a new driver can simply waggle around and "jobs a good'un".

I play all three factions and do have reasonable success in a Magrider, but the tactics are totally different - you can't just blindly roam around, you will last seconds. It really is an ambush predator - it absolutely needs a secondary gunner to be viable and it is extremely vulnerable to certain types of attack. In the right circumstances it's great but you have to work hard to give yourself an advantage. It needs a heavy cert and time investment to be competitive but don't take my word for it, just create a VS alt and try it.

As to the suggestions for improved maneuverability, when playing against VS it's incredibly frustrating to find a Magrider sitting somewhere no other tank could reach and farming away (like somewhere close to a spawn point). Improved maneuverability is only going to increase the frustration.

What does it need ? A shell speed boost maybe, but anything more is going to cause havoc to the balance - sure the Magrider is the worst 1/2 tank and will generally lose any 1v1 MBT battle (when equally skilled), it's terrible against air and any fast moving target - but it was totally dominant when first introduced even with plenty of its current drawbacks and nobody really wants to go back there do they ?

What the magrider needs is simple: the devs need to watch how magriders are used in actual battles by both noobs (who go for the standard IM A TAAAAAAANK playstyle) and by vets or people like me with r3 stealth. We don't play it like a tank. We play it like a slower, more punishing harasser. The magrider's current standing allows for it to be the most annoying thing on the battlefield.....unless you're talking about a CQC Vanguard with the WINShield or a lockdown Prowler hull down at render distance.

The Mag has a difficult time winning 1v1 engagements against other tanks without a massive advantage up front.

I can't really point to specific solutions and I don't think anyone in the playerbase is qualified to do so. The devs need to spend a few months just analyzing gameplay and come to a decision. They'll have more info than loaded stats (******* forumsiders) and more footage than veteran tankers. It's not up to us forumsiders.

There is definitely a *problem* - if you want the mag to be just as good at being a Tank compared to the Prowler or Vanguard.

The main underlying problem is that the other faction's positives completely undermine the Magrider's advantage. The high velocity of the AP rounds for Vanguards and Prowlers nulifies the Magrider's strafe from any reasonable distance, as you can't miss when you aim at center mass, which has been proven.

Therefore, we are faced with two possible solutions. Either:

Nerf the velocities of the other MBT's across the board. This change, while both negative in nature and broad and generalizing, would actually suffice to bring the Magrider somewhat up to par. It would still be the worst 1/2 by far, and it would still require a higher skill playstyle, but for those of us who use it like a fat harsser, it would be somewhat helpful.

Or the second option, while requiring significantly greater work on Daybreak's end, would result in greater overall game balance, while letting the Magrider play both a tanking and a flanking style. This change would require a massive overhaul of MBT abilities, going as far as to making the current ES abilities passively equip(So you could also use an NS ability such as FS or IR Smoke), as well as changes to how each MBT ability works.

For Ability changes, we have two options as well. The first is to adjust the current abilities, and the second is to still adjust the current abilities somewhat, but to also introduce a wave of 2nd Gen mbt abilities which could fill the gaps for the current abilities. I personally want the latter option, as this promotes diversity within the MBT sphere and gives us more content and play options.

Within the latter option, these general changes have been suggested:

The Vanguard Shield, is buffed back to it's original state. In exchange, the Vanguard loses the ability to turn it's chassis, or has it's ability to turn significantly reduced, in order to offset how strong the shield is. This would let any tank, not just Magriders, not be completely screwed if a Vanguard popped it's winshield whenever it got flanked and was in a bad situation. This was the primary complaint of Magrider drivers for the pre-nerf Vanguard Shield. Even a max reload, 2/2 AP Magrider could not break the vanguard shield even from the rear. This meant 12 seconds of free damage for the Vanguard, which was quite frustrating. If the Vanguard couldn't move, as well as a few changes so that the Magrider could break the shield from the rear, it would mean that a Magrider who spent 5-15+ minutes flanking a tank zerg wouldn't be screwed over by the first Vanguard it came across. In exchange for such a drastic nerf, we could also buff the recharge rate of the Shield to 50-45-40-35 from it's current 60-55-50-45.

After that, the Vanguard would get a second ability, a powerful Resist Shield that only reduced damage. This would come with a smaller mobility reduction, but would also provide reduced benefit in surprise attacks, flanks, and burst damage, but would also be stronger when used preemptively, and in sustained firefights(Which is the Vanguard driver's main complaint if I remember correctly).

For the Magrider, the Magburner would be buffed in recharge speed, duration, thrust, and vertical height gained. Would this mean Turbo Flash Magriders? Yes. Would that be unbalanced? Possibly. Would that be completely awesome? Completely and entirely. The Magrider's alternate ability would then be the Ombiburner. This would have closer strength to the current Magburner, with improved charge speed but reduced duration at the same time. The Omniburner, as is named, would allow the Magrider to AB in whatever direction it was moving when the key was pressed. This would mean the Magrider could burn from side to side to dodge projectiles, or it could burn backwards to better flee an opponent while not exposing your flank, or it could be used to ensure total Magmower TK domination over every unlucky VS Engineer who happens to step foot on the ground of araxis. Rest in spaghetti, never forgetti.


For the TR, honestly we have had a lot of trouble finding what the TR want. I suggested a sort of Overdrive engine, similar to the TR MAX In PS1, which would force the Prowler to move forward in exchange for faster reload, so sort of a reversal of the current Lockdown, which removes mobility altogether. But with how badly MBT guns are stabilized, I can't see how many tankers would enjoy that. Honestly, if any TR would like to speak up about that, then by my guest.

I love your quote about how no single person in forumside is qualified to suggest balance suggestions. It's ironic, I find, because these are the result of a cooperative think tank between all three factions for the last few years actually

It's not perfect, but our current system is a lot less near perfect. I don't provide exact numbers because that's what the PTS is for. Once the mechanic is implemented, we'd need to do some ingame testing to make sure everything checks out. But from what I can see, fundamentally these ideas seem pretty sound.

Ah I understand. So the argument is higher BR--> more skill--> higher stats.
Although in general I agree, there is much more at work than higher BR. Quite possibly, the VS simply starts later with the Magrider. This doesn't give them more skill, simply a later entry point when they start learning. It isn't a standard tank like most games, meaning a lot of people will avoid what they don't know/understand. The Vanguard on the other hand is the most stereotypical tank in the game, making is a low entry point for people.

Besides that, the gap is much, much bigger than the stats of ColonelChingles shine through. VKPH of about .80 higher doesn't seem much, but it adds to the extra playtime of the AP Magrider. So the AP Magrider gets more Vkills per hour and plays more hours to boot. All this despite less AP magriders in play on average, meaning the Vanguards get the short stick. For me it is too much of a difference to just to write it off as "higher BR, higher skill, higher stats". There is more at play here.

So here we disregard that the other two tanks can't strafe at all, so there is simply an advantage in strafing. The strafing increases the chances to dodge attacks, simply as that. This advantage gets bigger with more distance. If you compare that with the Vanguards ability to shoot 1,5 more shots without taking damage if the enemy stays below 2000 damage in 6 seconds, it is laughable. A shot missed by not even using your ability is tremendous and you get a boost to up the chances too.
Secondly, the tank mostly faces it's target when attacking. This means it can strafe around obstacles with full use of it's front armour, versus the other having to show their side armour more often.

Also these things are quite misleading. Better armour? Yes. Better speed? Yes, but not better manoeuvrability or hill climbing and the thing can't strafe. Better active ability? I'm dumbfounded, as the thing is only psychologically strong. In reality, 1,5 more shots without taking damage isn't an incredible advantage if you compare it to the ability to dodge more shots at range. It only has to be 2 or 3 and your already golden. The boost helps in and out of battle. In battle it can give you a good chance to get away and prepare for a new assault or simply chasing down a target, while outside it helps with flanking. Some flanking even outside the elevation area of the other tanks. Both uses are tactically incredibly valuable and you just throw them away like nothing. A shield is only useful at one thing, preventing (some) damage with certainty, but many situations let you run away and wait out the shield. Better profile? Yeah but I'm still inclined to shoot pretty low on a tank, often causing me to miss as it goes under the thing. Maybe it is just me, but it is an advantage that might make a difference. So in reality we have better armour and better profile. The magrider has a better passive (floating and strafing beat a tiny bit of extra armour for me) and a better active ability as it helps in more situations and can prevent more damage than the shield at all times.

Also, survivability is a trait of the Vanguard, but it is trumped by the Magrider?

Also, regardless of all these arguments, there is one thing clear. Less Magriders gain higher stats than the more abundant Vanguard. The thing doesn't need to gain even better stats.

Seriously OP you suck

There appears to be some concept that alludes you:

The Magrider

Cannot dodge

WITHIN 300 METERS

AT ALL

Period.

Simply put, the magrider doesn't accelerate fast enough to make that strafe useful. I'm sorry if it rustles your jimmies, but the fact remains that if you simply put your cursor on center mass of the Magrider, you cannot, and will not, miss within 300 meters. 500 meters for the Deployed Prowler. This has been extensively tested in game and the math backs us up. In addition, the Vanguard and Prowler both have superior burst DPS, so trying to use terrain to peek out will also put you at a disadvantage.

So in reality, the Magrider does not have an advantage of strafe in an MBT vs MBT.

Plus, you deliberately ignore the fact that the Vanguard can use a secondary. In this thread, we are talking full on, fully prepared, fully equip AV tanks. So that means an AV secondary gunner AND reload speed on all your weapons.

This means 2 entire shots with the Halberd. This means 6 shots with the Enforcer. This means 25 more shots with the Mjolnir. With max reload, you still won't get 2 shots off, but a single second more is a blink of an eye for a reload. Realistically, it means 2 more AP rounds in any actual tank fight.

2 shots with the Halberd means 2000 damage. 3000 damage for the Enforcer. A whole lotta ******* damage for the Boombox. I'm sorry, but 6 seconds of no damage means a ******* lot in any tank battle. Even if you manage to break it, it means 2000 damage that you spent just trying to actually damage the Vanguard, instead of actually killing it. It's a 50% HP boost for free button. All that time, your secondary gunner will be pounding your *** with impunity. Remember, the AV secondaries are stronger then your MBT's primary, in order to try and encourage tankers to get secondary gunners. So at this point, you can clearly see, that the Vanguard shield is pretty ******* strong.

But I don't even want it nerfed. I just want the Magrider to be adjusted so that it performs better as it's fat harasser role.

Also, the fact that you just tried to justify the Magburner as a viable combat ability, pretty much just invalidated your entire argument. Any good magrider user knows that it's suicide to try and burn behind any competent tanker, as attempting that will mean a free side armor shot for your enemy as he turns around, laughing at you. Which puts you at a huge HP disadvantage, which the Magrider already can't afford. And trying to use it to escape is just asking that Vanguard to put an AP round in your ***. The NC and TR's secondaries both rely on sustained damage, which means any time you expose weaker armor, you will take increased damage from the constant volley of Enforcer rounds or the hailstorm of Vulcan bullets.



And what the heck? Misleading? Armor is not misleading. Speed is not misleading. I never said anything about mobility. 2000 Free HP for 6 seconds is not psychological at all, it's very real and very strong. At range, the Prowler and Vanguard have superior velocity, so that also nullifies the argument that the Magrider is somehow superior at range because it's strafe. And not to mention that the strafe itself comes with several crippling disadvantages. You have to turn your entire tank to face your opponent, which means if you get flanked you are screwed. You have to account for your tanks movement when aiming, which isn't so bad, but then you get a 15* maximum angle reduction so hitting aircraft is a *****.

As I said above, all the "Advantages" you claim aren't really advantages, because they within themselves have disadvantages. It's a niche, not an advantage.



And finally, the stats. Sigh, I get tired of typing this sometimes.

I'mma TL;DR ya here, but you can search yourself if you really want to search for truth instead of just trying to argue your point and increase your ****** size.

So basically, the Magrider uses more AP secondaries(The primary deciding factor in an MBT engagement), but still somehow manages to barely outscore the Vanguard. The Vanguard has more Basilisks(Meaning more likely to be 1/2), less AP secondaries, and lives shorter then the Magrider, but somehow just barely underscores the Magrider. One would assume that a long lifespan, AP oriented setup and full crew would mean a significantly higher VKPH, but somehow the Vanguard is only just trailing behind. This indicates that the Vanguard is performing very well for VKPH, while being less inclined to actually use an AP setup.

With the above in mind, we can safely assume that the Vanguard is a superior AV platform then the Magrider.

Remember, I don't want Vanguard nerfs, or even Prowler nerfs. I just want the Magrider to excel in it's own unique style. I'm even all for buffing the AI power of the Vanguard at the same time(Though with the current Canister, I'm not so sure that's needed).

I know it's kind of a wall of text, but the situation that the maggy is in is pretty complicated. Even a TL;DR would be quite lengthy. It really can't just boil down to "vanny op pls nerf" or "maggy up pls buff".

Which coincidentally, are the threads that often have the largest arguments. A sign of a good thread is often times if people argue or not

Higher BR means more experience in two senses, both in terms of playing experience, and in terms of certs (from experience) to spend improving their vehicle. While it is possible that "Magrider drivers just start later because Magriders are weird" which even if it was true (which it probably isn't) still doesn't account for the fact that the Magrider driver has better knowledge of game mechanics/map design and has spent more certs on his MBT (partly because Magriders are far more likely to have an AV secondary gunner)

I don't understand what you mean. Average daily play-time of the AP cannons is currently 312.3 hours for the Magrider, but 400.4 for the Vanguard. VKPH means how many vehicle kills each MBT gets per hour of play time. The Magrider is the least used MBT, so despite having a higher vehicle kills per hour played, because its played time is lower, it gets far fewer vehicle kills.

If you don't believe me, look at the vehicle deaths stats for all factions and all BR http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/

For every single ground vehicle, the Titan AP is ahead of the FPC, and in the case of MBT vs MBT, it is far far in the lead.