They 'are just utter crap' ??? By what metric? All VS LMG's besides Orion SVA and BG are bad? What metric makes them bad? What STATS make them bad? Comparable to the LMG's that TR and NC has that has roles and intended uses comparable to the VS versions, how are the VS versions objectively inferior? Are the stats and attachment options for these weapons just universally worse? Are the stats sub-par compared to the TR and/or the NC versions? WHAT is the definition for 'crap' in this case?
Shut up. I'll reply how I want to, when I want to. You don't even make sense. You don't like what I write? the solution is simple: Look the other way or ignore the post. I am never in my life again going to discuss anything with you. You are going right back on the ignore list. You are the most biased TR player in the universe and you think everything the other factions have is beyond OP meanwhile all TR gear is trash. And the proof of this is debated countless of times on the forums. TR guys are whining about the orion and beetlejuice every day. Completely ignoring the rest of the game and what other guns that exist. Like AR's. VS AR's are prob the worst pile of junk in the entire game and this is a fact. Their guns which should be the same across the board are worse due to the plethera of downsides no bullet drop comes with. This means, the HV-45 is worse than GR-22 or TAR/TRV. The Flare and Ursa are worse than EM6 or TMG-50. The default VS carbine and assault rifle are a joke and complete ****. VS is a ½ done faction where chaos reigns supreme. No one knows what their trait is. Its a mix of no bullet drop which is useless and small clips with boring bland 652/698 ROF weapons. Unlike bias TR players (like you) I can admit that VS have a few really good weapons, but the rest of their guns are boring bland and downright worse than their counterparts. This is also a fact. This is why VS players use the same guns over and over and over again - this doesnt mean i come crying on the forums demanding every good TR or NC gun gets nerfed to **** - I take a look at the big picture (which is the entire game - i know TR players struggle with this fact) and see its mostly balanced. There are places where X faction is stronger than Y and Z. But then it goes right back to Y and Z being stronger than X in another regard. Don't bother replying, you will be ignored and I won't read it.
yes but a heavy pulling an SMG is fine cuz they dont have the same ammo pool of most of the larger LMGs
Yes, because surely this is all known and you can point this out, right? No other PS2 player who mains TR is more biased than me? Tall claim. Unverifiable and tall. I claim, anywhere, that all non-TR gear is OP while all TR gear is trash? Citations please. This is nothing but a barrage of worthless unverifiable claims and attacks against me. well done. This is an example for everyone else to see how not to respond to anyone, I am not the one looking foolish and petty here. you are. So VS Assault rifles being poor is somehow a balancing force for VS Light Machine Guns being to user-friendly. Got it. How about we just boost VS AR's and nerf VS LMG's if that is the case? Naah, the VS LMG's being unbalanced in favor of VS and their AR's being unbalanced in favor of their enemies is perfectly fine, I guess. And ofc, you are not going to provide anything to verify any of these claims. classic. BTW, the fact that silencers adds a huge amount of bullet-drop to TR and NC guns makes a big difference on their guns. On VS silencers only decrease the weapon's bullet velocity - the VS' no-bullet-drop faction trait remains intact. Check this in-game if you wish. No-bullet drop allows VS weapons to remain as accurate as they did before IN SPITE of being silenced, that makes for a positive aspect of the no-bullet-drop trait. Citations please. Anyone who want to make this kind of claim can feel free to provide the stats and attachments options etc. for all the weapons they wish to compare and show me how they are worse off, because unless your rant about the Flare being worse than EM6/TMG-50 is backed by bare naked stats you got nothing. VS has many awesome weapons, I simply disagree with your BASELESS claim that 'the rest of' their weapons are "worse than their counterparts". you fail to cite what weapons are 'awesome' and what constitutes 'the rest of' their weapons, and you assume that a simple "This is a fact." line will somehow actually make your claims correct. Cut me some slack here, you are speaking in such generalized terms that you can cram almost anything in here. But I guess I should expect this from someone who make claims like this "...bias TR players (like you)..." "You are the most biased TR player in the universe and you think everything the other factions have is beyond OP meanwhile all TR gear is trash." "TR guys are whining about the orion and beetlejuice every day. Completely ignoring the rest of the game and what other guns that exist." "I take a look at the big picture (which is the entire game - i know TR players struggle with this fact)" Utterly pathetic. This whole thunderstorm of generalized hatred came about because I asked you to back your claims and kindly stop complaining about the fact that others dare to respond to another's arguments, and you answered with personalized attacks against me, generalized assaults against all TR players like everyone is a hive-mind collective, and reinforced your previous unverified arguments about VS being inherently inferior in the weapon department, ALL THE WHILE COMPLAINING THAT I SUPPOSEDLY DO THE SAME THING FOR TR. Wow. Just wow man. Don't worry, I will NOT be blocking you, because I'm not that petty and childish. The next time you make a terrible post like this I will respond to it as well should I feel so inclined and it will be there, fully visible for everyone ELSE to read and draw their own conclusions from. Have a great day. I'm sure you will now that no mean TR can argue back against your unverified claims.
It's relative. LMGs: Flare/ Ursa: TMG-50, and basically any 167dmg NC LMG, vs. the Flare and the Ursa and they're just...better. All of them have lower base horizontal recoil, to start with, while the Flare has the horizontal recoil of a 143dmg weapon and doesn't even have an advanced grip option. Ursa has worse RoF than LMGs with around the same accuracy. Pulsar LSW is a slightly more accurate(IE not particularly) SVA w/out .75 ADS hence no one uses it. Polaris, it's hard to know where to start. It has poor damage output but an advanced laser sight - but LMGs are the primary with the worst hip-fire. Orion/SVA/Betel are just our clear winners and mainly due to the .75 ADS which may be going away. Assault Rifles: Equinox and CME are nearly straight downgrades from an NS-11A. There's no reason to use them aside from... wait nope, our directive AR isn't worth grinding for anyway. Pulsar VS1 being easily the worst of the starter ARs - worse damage per mag than Cycler and Gauss, minor accuracy advantage over the Cycler but worse RoF, and worse accuracy than Gauss. Corvus is a ranged AR, and while it's accurate its TTK is awful compared to weapons with almost the same accuracy on TR/NC(SABR / Reaper / Gauss Rifle). Terminus, and maybe HV45, as only AR worth using. Carbines - Solstice is just too weak relative to the similar TTK but much more accurate Pulsar C. Zenith is fairly clearly a downgraded Jaguar - which doesn't make it terrible but as I said, it's all relative. Lower damage per mag, lower RoF, no soft point access, all just for an advanced grip option. VX6-7 vs. Jaguar now instead of Zenith - 50 lower RoF for no extra damage drop off, no angle recoil (VX6-7 has a very variable hard right pull), .75 ADS, 10 extra rounds. VX6-7 just doesn't quite compete either. Serpent just isn't quite as good as GD-7F which has far superior velocity - near ranged carbine value for some odd reason while Serpent is SMG levels - and their accuracy is about the same, Serpent having worse angled pull, GD-7F having worse vertical recoil. Essentially we lack good ranged precision LMGs and ARs entirely, and we're just under par when it comes to carbine options for closer ranges(and our damage per mag sucks, in a game full of durable heavy assaults). Orion is basically the only LMG I like on VS, though I've been begrudgingly using the Flare in my half-hearted start to grinding a Betelgeuse. Terminus is the only AR I'd ever use with the current state of VS ARs. And Pulsar C or NS-11C is what I end up using as my all-rounder carbines even though their TTK is poor. Everything else just makes poor "item budget" trade-offs. VX6-7 or Zenith could really be done better as "Terminus style" @ 750-769 RoF. With VX6-7 that extra 50 RoF isn't worth that extra damage drop-off and accuracy penalties. And the Zenith seemingly pays a lot for its attachment options, but having advanced laser and grip benefits nobody when it has weaker stats for it and can't equip both anyway.
Focuslight here are the stats on the 167 damage Machine guns. Flare: 167@10m, 143@75m, 4.24 short reload, 5.225 long reload, .44 vertical recoil, .2/.2 Horizontal recoil, 0.75 Horizontal tolerance 1.85x First shot recoil, 577 rpm, 600 m/s Ursa 167@10m, 143@75m, 3.72 short reload, 4.7 long reload, .395 vertical recoil, .182/182 Horizontal recoil, .5 Horizontal tolerance, 1.5x First shot recoil, 550 rpm, 640 m/s TMG-50: 167@10m, 143@75m, 4.24 short reload, 5.225 long reload, .45 vertical recoil, .175/.175 Horizontal recoil, 0.7 Horizontal tolerance, 1.5x First shot recoil, 577 rpm, 615 m/s NC Gauss Saw S: 167@10m, 143@75m, 4.24 short reload, 5.02 long reload, .45 vertical recoil, .175/.175 Horizontal recoil 0.6 Horizontal tolerance, 1.65x First shot recoil, 577 rpm, 630 m/s EM6: 67@10m, 143@75m, 4.655 short reload, 5.655 long reload, .45 vertical recoil, .175/.175 Horizontal recoil 0.7 Horizontal tolerance, 1.8x First shot recoil, 600 rpm, 570 m/s The Flare was the VS version of the TMG-50 and Gauss Saw S and yet its stats are far worse. Originally the Flare was closer to the Stats of the other S grade LMGs and that is when I had put it to its greatest use. As for the Ursa it never really got any improvement.
just in case anyone here doesn't click links: LMGs are going to see some changes on PTS based on feedback, these changes going live will be highly dependent on community reception and feedback. So when the changes hit test, go try them out and discuss! Orion ADS modifier changed from 0.75 to 0.5 Horizontal Recoil to from 0.2/0.225 to 0.22/0.22 Horizontal Tolerance from 0.9 to 0.88 Standing hipfire from 2.75 to 2.5 Moving hipfire from 3.5 to 3.25 Projectile Velocity from 570 to 540 Betelgeuse ADS modifier changed from 0.75 to 0.5 Horizontal Recoil to from 0.2/0.225 to 0.22/0.22 Horizontal Tolerance from 0.9 to 0.88 Standing hipfire from 2.75 to 2.5 Moving hipfire from 3.5 to 3.25 Projectile Velocity from 570 to 540 Decreased Heat bleedoff speed by 20% Anchor Standing hipfire from 3 to 2.75 Moving hipfire from 3.75 to 3.5 Projectile Velocity from 600 to 570 MSW-R Standing hipfire from 3 to 2.75 Moving hipfire from 3.75 to 3.5 Projectile Velocity from 580 to 550 SVA-88 & SVA-88 GG ADS modifier changed from 0.75 to 0.5 Horizontal Recoil from 0.2/0.225 to 0.2/0.2 Horizontal Tolerance from 0.9 to 0.8 Vertical Recoi; from 0.44 to 0.4 Pulsar LSW Can now attach Extended Mag EM1 Maximum damage range from 10m to 20m Horizontal recoil from 0.2/0.2 to 0.18/0.18 Horizontal tolerance from 0.7 to 0.54 T16 Rhino Maximum damage range from 10m to 20m Will now be able attach Soft Point Ammo (WIP) VX29 Polaris Maximum damage range from 10m to 20m Recoil angle from 17/20 to 17/17 Will now be able to attach Flash Suppressor (WIP) Butcher Clip size changed from 150 to 100 Ammo Capacity changed from 450 to 400 Horizontal recoil Min/Max changed from 0.225 to 0.21375 Reload (short) changed from 5.4 to 4.8 Reload (long) changed from 6.2 to 5.8 Guass Saw Moving Aim Down Sights CoF from 0.5 to 0.4 Edit: Added Gass Saw change I already really liked the EM1 before (i know many people didn't but never understood why). Now I am sad I already auraxiumed it. All around buffs for it. TL;DR for the changes. close range LMGs get hipfire buff and velocity nerf. orion and beetlejuice now recoil straight up?!? mostly it's buffs.
Thats now how horizontal recoil works. basically it cant be explained like this; assuming a 0.5 Left and 0.5 right for a gun, after you fire each shot the gun end up pointing at a random point within a 1.0 degree cone from center with the addition that the next shot is now centered around the recoil position of this shot, and that guns almost never seem to recoil in one direction more than twice.
ok what i meant is that it doesn't have a bias in one direction anymore. I know it'll still jitter left and right.
Still not how it works, its not biased to any side because the numbers are greater. Try reading this: http://ps2guides.besaba.com/mechanics#recoil_mechanics
Colour coded the stats to compare the VS and NC LMG's you listed with the TMG-50, I sure hope I've not read the stats wrong - if that's the case just assume green is bad red is good As I see it the differences are minor across the board, with some trade ups or downs depending on what weapon you look at, but overall this supports the feel I've had of these guns that they are comparable, but still different. Regardless, I have to state here that my time with the Ursa has been very short, Flare is a gun I have more experience with and then, not very much. I still don't see how the VS guns are worse off across the board, it seems more like a mixed bag to me Compared to the NC versions however the VS weapons are a bit sub-par: Flare: 167@10m, 143@75m, 4.24 short reload, 5.225 long reload, .44 vertical recoil, .2/.2 Horizontal recoil, 0.75 Horizontal tolerance 1.85x First shot recoil, 577 rpm, 600 m/s Ursa 167@10m, 143@75m, 3.72 short reload, 4.7 long reload, .395 vertical recoil, .182/182 Horizontal recoil, .5 Horizontal tolerance, 1.5x First shot recoil, 550 rpm, 640 m/s EM6: 167@10m, 143@75m, 4.655 short reload, 5.655 long reload, .45 vertical recoil, .175/.175 Horizontal recoil 0.7 Horizontal tolerance, 1.8x First shot recoil, 600 rpm, 570 m/s --- Flare: 167@10m, 143@75m, 4.24 short reload, 5.225 long reload, .44 vertical recoil, .2/.2 Horizontal recoil, 0.75 Horizontal tolerance 1.85x First shot recoil, 577 rpm, 600 m/s Ursa 167@10m, 143@75m, 3.72 short reload, 4.7 long reload, .395 vertical recoil, .182/182 Horizontal recoil, .5 Horizontal tolerance, 1.5x First shot recoil, 550 rpm, 640 m/s NC Gauss Saw S: 167@10m, 143@75m, 4.24 short reload, 5.02 long reload, .45 vertical recoil, .175/.175 Horizontal recoil 0.6 Horizontal tolerance, 1.65x First shot recoil, 577 rpm, 630 m/s Add to all this the attachment options for each weapon. Seems to me the VS LMG's in question here are better balanced towards the TMG-50 than the Gauss SAW S and EM6, but not by very much, again. I really don't know what to tell from these stats, it don't seem to me like their differences can be a major factor in why non 0.75 LMG's are just 'better' than the alternatives, and the stat differences are far milder than I believed earlier :/ I guess with the proposed removal of the 0.75 mobility factor and with that, along with the stat changes, we will see a lot more varied use of different LMG's and will be better able to tell how big a difference the stats might be making.
Unlikely. VS's other LMGs still suck enough that most of us will keep using Orion even if it's a downgraded MSW-R. SVA is pretty meh without .75 ADS, while LSW / Polaris aren't getting anything game changing to make them suddenly worth anything. And Flare / Ursa are still just basically downgraded NC guns. Might see a lot more NS-15M and Eridani use though. All assuming the PTS changes go live as is, but hopefully they'll filter through feedback well enough and improve the changes before it hits live.
@Focuslight I didn't include mag size in that post Flare/Ursa/NC Gauss Saw S/TMG-50 75 Rounds EM 6 100 Rounds Wish I still had the Data of all the weapon changes after release, as the Select fire LMGs all preformed better before the burst fire update.
Actually thats what it is. They are removing the 0.75 ADS and giving them buffs in other areas. If I remember hearing right, The orion is getting a reduced cone of fire and first shot recoil. Theyre bring everything recoil related down. This is what I heard from someone who regulars the PTS, Apparently it was mentioned on Reddit.
I knew it would be such a shiit change. Only DGC can be so dumb to try it. BBurness, if you read this - I know you know nothing: this mysterious movement modifier is/was a faction specific trait of the VS. DGC fired the people who balanced it long ago, so nobody knows it anymore. The old guys gave the factions some different weapons so it won´t be the same all the time. This is called faction specificy. The NC have: - hard hitting weapons (dmg tier LMG) - shields (MAX ability and Vanuguard shield) - superior ES shotgun (Jackhammer and 2nd vehicle shotgun) - guided missiles (2nd gen AV Ravens and Phoenix) The TR have: - dakka aka more ammo per mag (high round LMG) - stationary mode (Lockdown MAX and Prowler) - fast firing weapons (Chaingun and Vulcan) - also the equivalent RL (Striker and 2nd gen AV MAX) Last the VS some people say they have accuracy, but this is wrong. They have: - parts of both, the golden middle - superior movement (useless ZOE and weak magrider AND the .75 movement modifier! since they didn´t got a special treatment on their stats on the LMG) - lazers (Lancer and Vortex) - and they had suppressive fire (Lasher, PPA got nerf to uselessness) This list is not complete since there are 2 other faction specific features, but no one would get those. I am afraid that even now there will be some **** that have no idea what they are talking about, complaining about my post saying "great nerf on VS LMG! we need more!". As always: this change is dumb. TheFlyingSalmon predicts bad press, also he predicts that you shiit on the given feedback and change it anyways. Just like always. Remember my words!
Well enlighten me and name some of the 0.75 ADS LMGs (can´t remember any of them?), as I mentioned VS got it for not having a speacial treatment on their LMGs.
