I hate to be that guy, but...

Unless you're missing something, the Kobalt is specifically designed to engage and kill infantry, and the Sunderer's AI-focused weapon loadout speaks to the fact that it's *designed* be formidable against infantry. Fail argument. Period.

The issue at hand is the utterly ludicrous TTK against armor with the Fury, which was never intended to do grievous damage to enemy armor. Its description is dishonest. It does major, not light, damage to enemy vehicles. If it were "specifically intended" to destroy enemy vehicles at close range, the description would match what's actually happening.

The fact that battle sunderers even exist and flourish in their niche does nothing for the game at all. There's literally no overall point to the battle sunderer as an AV tool. It's a meaningless, extremely gimmicky, and unnecessary headache for dedicated tanks. Nobody at SOE intended for a troop transport to be driving backwards with dual furies and bulldogs to engage enemy armor. The very fact that this is what's currently happening is merely the result of an emergent, unintentional usage, and addressing it would benefit more people than it'd hurt.

I'm not really sure what that was all about, but I'll just reiterate that a 200-resource troop transport equipped with weapons whose predominant purpose is to engage infantry shouldn't pose a substantial threat to a dedicated ground vehicle hunter that costs 250 more resources per pull. Range is an irrelevant, arbitrary factor that some people in this thread keep hoisting up as the end-all hard counter to battle sundies. In reality, not all terrain looks like the expanse between Quartz Ridge and Indar Excavation Site, and close-range armor engagements occur very frequently.

There are many, MANY areas in which a battle bus can flourish effectively against tanks of all skill levels. Attributing the issue to a lack of skill on the tank's part is a display of ignorance.

precisely. i really don't understand why this exact fact doesn't cross peoples minds before they cry op.

The real problem is with how cheap it is now.
It's like pulling MBTs when you have the 50% ground vehicle continent. You can pull a whole lot more of them, except the 50% ground vehicle also effects sunderers, so they become even cheaper than a Harasser which doesn't have the continent.

Have any of the people defending a fully certed battle bus in this thread actually driven or been driven around in one?

I ask because ya'll either haven't experienced the glorious farm of a fully certed Bulldog or Fury sundy OR you have spent so much time in one, and have gained so many certs from stomping other people that you will defend to the death your ability to continue farming. There's a reason WaaWaa got to br100 in record time driving sunderer's, and that reason is not because the Sunderer is balanced.

My first question is "why is it Okay for a sundy to roll around with all purpose farming weapons while everyone else is forced to pick and choose a role?"(besides ESFs but that's a whole different topic). I don't even bother to think of the situation anymore, I simply ask my gunners which weapon they would prefer to farm with today, and off we go.

My second question is "why the hell does the rear armor of a sundy still absorb like a million rockets?" The HP to the rear of a sudy is simply to high. Someone else put it perfectly, AA is a true deterrent for ESF, while AV is a really bad deterrent for a blockade Sunderer because they simply can tank to much damage from the rear(any competent Sunderer driver will ensure their rear is facing you while engaging enemies)

I personally consider myself a MBT pilot. I haven't been driving MBTs for a few months now though because you can do everything a MBT can do in a Sunderer, except snipe from long range. You can take out any other vehicle in close/medium range, you can endless farm infantry with splash weapons, and you have enough health from the rear to out tank every tank in the game. So I'll drive my outfit members around happily in a Sunderer farming kills and certs all day until it is nerfed, IDGAF

Just kill tanks at close range. Also, farm tons of infantry. Also, act as an AMS on command. Also, carry an AV squad along with you clown car style. Also, GSD if you feel like it. Also, squad spawning. Also, on a 200 resource cost vehicle that can be pulled anywhere.

But the 2/2 AV MBT with double the cost that actually has no role other than to kill vehicles, shouldn't be able to kill the Sunderer?

I don't understand.

So numbers should be everything and we should ignore every other conceivable factor?

Flash > ESF

So would changing the description work for you, then?

The Fury is, in fact, intended to be an AV weapon by the devs. Forget which patch, was at least 6 months back if not a year. The Bulldog and Fury kept going back and forth in being the 'best' due to balance patches until the devs finally decided to give them different roles. The Bulldog was left as an 8m infantry nuke, while the Fury had its splash pulled in and the AV damage raised (plus velocity), with explicit commentary that the Fury shift was intended to fill an AV role. The devs flat out said that they reduced the Fury AI and raised the AV capability to make it an AV weapon.

Fun fact: the devs themselves seem to have forgotten that the Fury is supposed to be AV, with the Bulldog AI. When the Bulldog was overperforming they brought the splash in to the current 5m, rather than reducing the AV damage. They likely also forgot to change the description of the Fury when they changed it.



Sundy is a little off now, they had to lower the resource cost because Sundies used to be free for infantry players to pull, now they need them cheaper than the C4 or mine cost to take them out since it's all the same resource. The fact that you can pull 3x as many 3/12 Sundies than a 2/2 tank is a bit messed, but otherwise the outright power of a Sundy isn't really that bad. If anything two 3/12 Repair Battle Sundies are pretty ridiculous, but that's a good deal of teamwork with 6 people and body blocking by the drivers to make effective.

Heck, even a Valk is capable of taking down a Battle Sundy. If a Valkyrie is an alpha predator then it can't be that bad.

Then read the rest of my post. You're concentrating purely on the upside of the config without accounting for the downside.

For example: No, it can't be an AMS. The moment it does it is no longer a battle bus as that requires mobility. If it switches back to mobility then it is no longer an AMS.

I won't rehash the rest. See previously discussed points.

I can't simply stop moving in a tank and become an AMS.

Nor can you be a battle bus and an AMS at the same time.

While moving -> You can hold your own with a tank but if it's 2/2 and AV you'll lose.
While holding still -> You can AMS but you'll be fodder for a 1/2 HEAT tank.

There is nothing OP about a fury battle bus. Everything has tradeoffs. If it was complete OP then people would use Sundies instead of tanks....always.

Most of the kills a Battle-Bus gets, are against single-manned MBT's or against bad crews who let the BattleBus attack their rear.
I've never seen my Outfit commander lose a fight to a BattleBus. Mainly b/c he always has a decent Enforcer gunner...

The Bus iteself quote-unquote "NOT HAVING ITS OWN WEAKSPOT" is a redherring argument since its massive hitbox "IS ITS OWN WEAKPOINT" as far as hit-detection and ease of aiming in this game goes. It's nothing like the a Vulcan harrasser or Hornet-Scythe that only very experienced tanking crews & dumbfire infantry can actually hit reliably.

This.

Sunderer is the new "OP Unit/Weapon" (well, it's been OP for a while, but...). Average players are continuing to catch on, and we're seeing them take over the Standard (non-Server Smash) Game. This has been building for a while now, and I think people have been slow to jump on it because it's a non-intuitive Unit to be so powerful.

Give it about 6 months, then SOE will *maybe* do something about it. SOE Designer status quo.

Many Units can't really affect non-abandoned Sunderers. It's mostly Inafntry and MBTs that get the kills. And gotta figure Sunderer death stats are distorted by the number of totally unmanned Sunderers that are killed:
http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/

One great sign of a unit being OP, is the videos of users expressing complete amazement that they are dominating so easily. Or the videos that show the unit dominating and the video maker just thinks it's other players being incompetent.

Battle Bus is fine... It is a 3 person CQC MONSTER.
Want to not have your armor wrecked by a bus? Keep your distance, just like you do with a shotgun max...
Learn to play instead of making constant nerf calls...

Only issue with sunderers is that they are too cheap. Sunderers need a price increase to 400 nanites..

I don't think so. The Marauder and the Fury were practically clones for a while, with the Marauder having a bigger magazine and splash damage, making it better. Then the Marauder was nerfed, Fury became better, then Marauder was rebalanced, lost the vehicle damage completely and Fury lost the bigger magazine but not the ability to hit vehicles.

Fury was always an AI weapon with a theoretical light anti vehicle damage.

I don't understand why this is so difficult.

Battle Bus can become an AMS by stopping and hitting 'Deploy'.

MBT can never become an AMS.

Do you see why that is an advantage and something that a Battle Bus can do?

Also, a HEAT Vanguard has a 35-40s TTK to the rear of a Blockade Sunderer. You consider that "fodder"?

At the very least, can we remove the increased rear armor resistance, so they can be driven around like sensible Vehicles?

SOE needs to understand one thing: MBT should be king when the fight is on ground. Because transport vehicule are TRASNPORT vehicule, and artillery is artillery, and battle tanks are BATTLE tanks. Its not only the RL factors that makes this contraditory, its also some game aspects like: a MBT is more expensive than a sunderer or a harasser. Now, why should a buy a vehicule for 450 nanites if I can have a sunderer for less plus it carries 12 people, plus its stronger, plus it serves as a spawn point giving me even more xp?