Sunderer Deployment Shield - a bit over the top?

So, today I had my first real run-in with a sunderer deployment shield (well, probably had some before, but that was in the heat of battle).

Let me explain the situation:
Saw a base on Hossin getting capped (1-12) and spawned there. Enemy Sunderer was within map viewing distance from the spawn, so first target acquired.
As I had not unlocked much in the ways of Anti-Armor yet with that character I fell back on the default configuration of a Vanu HA. As I left the spawn room another guy spawned, he took LA.

So I went to the Sunderer, not a single soul was in sight, great, 5 rockets to the rear it is. I was quite surprised when after 5 standard rockets the Sundy didn't even begin to smoke. No matter, the LA guy was there by that point and quickly dropped two C4 bars on the Sundy. Boom. Or not.
Instead of blowing up it began to smoke slighlty - so down to about 50% health.
I went back to get more rockets while the LA made for the cap point. Again, emptied them into the Sundy and not a damn thing changed. Then a group of enemies proceeded to spawn and we were outnumbered 5:1, end of story.

I understand that this shield should serve to make a Sunderer a bit more survivable, but this is frankly ridiculous.
If what I experienced was regular and not the result of some bug or other, a stock heavy would probably need 4-5 runs to spawn and back with rockets and grenades to kill a completely unattended Sunderer.
As the job description of the HA clearly states Anti-Armor I find it laughable that unless you are certed up with everything Anti-Armor there is you probably will not be able to kill such a Suderer within a reasonably time frame.
In other words, a new player can't do anything short of pulling a tank or maybe a MAX. The Shield was meant for larger engagements and scales back to smaller battles very, very poorly.

And before somebody argues that this is a team game: Yes it is, but there are enough cases (especially in off hours) where you can count yourself lucky to find any allies whatsoever outside of the one or two zergs rampaging on the map, especially if you want to prevent a ghostcap.

The next argument would be that only something worth a comparable sum in nanites should be able to efficiently kill the sunderer. Reasonable, but only if it is actually manned. I can turn an unattended MBT into scrap metal without problems, but not a troop transporter? Sure, whatever.

Don't get me wrong, the idea behind the shield is good, but I think it really needs tweaking, for example in one of the following ways:

- In order for a deployment shield to Option A) be active
or Option B) recharge, a person needs to man the sunderer.
- For the deployment shield to recharge an engineer needs to at least briefly repair the sunderer
- For the deployment shield to recharge an allied soldier needs to be within 5 meters

Of course, these are only first thoughts, but they would serve to keep up the survivablity in bigger fights while preventing such absurd situations as the one I desribed above.

TL;DR: Sundy Deployment Shield does not really scale back to very small engagements, a single stock heavy against an unattended sunderer would take ages.

Thoughts? Ideas?

A Viper Lightning will take one down in a reasonable time frame if you are as undisturbed as you said you were in the situation you described. Still easy enough with vehicles to break one. Hard with a single infantry guy. 2k damage shield needs to go down first before you can damage the sundy.

I think its good enough so far, though i havent been in small enough engagements to find that shield sundy. probably would have opten for a vehicle. but the point is maybe lower it a smidge. but it is a spawn point and i feel one or 2 guys shouldnt pop it on their first visit

As a proud sundy-hunter myself I'll tell you this, if you expect to take out a sunderer with a shield by yourself or with one other guy, you either need to give up, grab a tank, or be smart. If one of you had went engineer and the other went HA you two could have killed it, the engi drops mines and ammo and the HA spams rockets. Shield sundy's aren't intended to be killed by two shmucks throwing random **** at it. If two guys coordinate, you can kill it easily, you and that other guy didn't so you both were essentially going 1v1 with the sunderer, and the shield is suppose to allow the sunderer to win that fight.

I'll agree that ammo would have probably worked, but I reiterate - the purpose of the shield is to prevent suicide charges and it does that admirably, but: It should not make the sunderer nigh immune to single units when it remains unattended. That is where in my opinion the problem lies, and that is probably also why the guy who brought the sundy in the aforementioned example did not try to hide it, but went on to cap with his spawnpoint very near to the base spawn.

A sunderer should be able to persist by being well hidden and/or well defended, not by parking in plain sight and relying on a single cert-upgrade.

So...

You pulled equipment and went up against a mechanic that was directly intended to counter your equipment. Then you used that tactic, it didn't work, and now you have come to the forum to complain?

That's like pulling aircraft, attacking skyguards, flak maxes, and flak turrets, and coming to the forum to complain that flak is too powerful.

Or pulling tanks, driving over tank mines, and complaining that the mines killed your tank.

I heard that the rear of the sunderer takes significantly less damage than it's supposed to.

Except you're missing the point. The shield wasn't suppose to prevent suicide charges, it was suppose to prevent one guy from killing the sunderer. Suicide or not, the shield is to prevent exactly what you tried to do. As Smoo said, you took equipment and went up against a mechanic specifically designed to counter you. One person, no matter what, shouldn't be able to take out a deployed sunderer, that is the entire point of the shield. Two people can easily take one out, one guy in a tank can easily take it out, but one lone infantry operating by himself can not take it out. The shield is working as intended, learn from this and adjust your tactics next time.

Ah, but the question is: should it really counter this type of equipment?

It should counter a single, massive surge of damage, because that is what killed so many sunderers in the past (mines + av grenade or 2 c4s plus a rocket for example), giving the defenders little chance to repair their spawn.

What is, in my opinion, supposed to give defenders time to react/repair/retaliate/retreat does however also work very well against damage spread over time. This, however, should - and that is my firm opinion - not be the case, because at that point it is up to the defenders to make sure their spawnpoint is not sent to the nanite nirvana.

Besides, if Anti-Armor equipment is perfectly countered by the defensive measures of a target classified as armor, there seems to be a slight contradiction...

Bad comparisons.

The first example is a direct case of player vs player, my example is about player vs unattended vehicle, so no player on one side.

The second one is different in so far as that a tank mine does exactly what it should, kill a tank.
A Sunderer Deployment Shield, however, should in my opinion counter a single instance of damage every once in a while to prevent a OHK, not make it near invulnerable against single units over a longer time span.

Hmm, okay. I guess this would result in an argument going in circles because of inherently different opinions what that shield should really do.
So I would agree to disagree about that point. ^^

That's only with Blockade Armor

OP, the Sundy shield was implemented to stop exactly what you were doing, trying to kill the sundy with one or two guys. In your case, you still could have done it with a utility pouch engineer, you just have to blow up the mines in waves. It takes about 5 mines total to kill a shield sundy, though you have to use 3 to deplete the shield first, then two to kill it.

Had you been carrying more rockets, or had an engineer with you, that would have been a dead sundy.

This was my biggest concern when it was released. In fact I seen it ruin my teams night the day it came out. This was late night gaming when the vast majority of the fights are small ones.

You're missing the point though. In (very) small engagements there is only one or two guys who can blow up a Sunderer.

This is the same problem as air vehicles dominating small fights but are useless in big ones. There is no fix sadly.

You can pull Viper Lightnings from any base. They will kill a Shield sundy. I have lost one of mine to a Viper Lightning in a smaller conflict. The incoming damage is just too much for the Sundy to stand up to.

I feel like it needs tweaking. When I have it deployed I almost feel like it's abuse to anything but a large number of coordinated attacks. I have held shield sundies against Tankbuster+Dalton Liberator rushes and an entire squad of heavies peeking a hill, not to mention innumerable C4 and Tank mine deaths averted. Its real weakness is just when not deployed. The status of the shield can also be confusing to both teams.

I suggest a few tweaks:

• Shield only active when at least one player is inside (reduce absent owners)
• Outside indicator of having AMS shield equipped (helps everyone identify them)
• Continuous indication of when shield is active (also can help both sides)
• Possibly has a better resistance to high impulse damage than lesser impulse damage (good vs. c4/mines, not as good vs. cannons and HMGs)

My main complaint about shield sundies has nothing to do with the way the shield works. I got no issues with it and can deal with it, provided I know what I'm dealing with. And that leads to my complaint.

There just needs to be a better visual cue from a distance that you're dealing with a shield sundy. Like how it only takes a quick glance to tell that you're dealing with a blockade or a mineguard sundy (no blockade armor nor repair or ammo module? Chances are it's mineguard so bring your C4).

I just want to be able to take a quick glance at it and go, "Okay it's a shield sundy. Pack accordingly."

I have to disagree with that, if the enemy can easily identify what type of protection you're using it'll make that protection near useless.

To give a somewhat unrelated example: You wouldn't install €$1000 worth of home-security equipment only to have the power source placed outside.

I don't like saying it much, but "working as intended".

People destorying sunderers and ruining small fights like that was a problem, and it also was solved.
Instead of trying to destroy sunderers in small 1-12 or 12-24 fights, it's better to just enjoy the fight and try to keep the base (which is possible with not that many players in one hex).

Sure you mentioned that a zerg "won" in the end, but they would've probably arrived anyway, even if the sundy in question had been destoryed.

i carry 2x C4, 4x decimator rockets, 4x AV grenades, and 21x explosive crossbow bolts. the last time i soloed a shield sundy it took all of my C4 and grenades, along with 3 of my 4 rockets. they are a bit chewy. now having said that i think they are still balanced because the shield is only active when it is deployed, unlike blockade which is "on" 24/7.

i won't pretend i like having my primary prey become substantially tougher when they are parked, but i think it is still balanced.

It's nothing but a minor annoyance to my AP Full lockdown reload certed halberd Prowler.