Poacher turned gamekeeper

There have been many threads criticising the apparent invulnerability of HA in CQC. I used to main HA so I have always put up a reasoned defence of the HA. I've moved on (now maining Engie and painfully learning how to play LA effectively). I recognise that lag, differences in computer specs, overestimating your own accuracy etc. all contribute to the problem that most people lay at the door of the HA overshield but I have to say this...........

For the first time today my Engie got the drop on an HA guy at point blank. I started shooting him in the back with my carbine and he turned and killed me just like that, before I finished (he had no shield up it has to be said). I heard precisely three shots from his LMG and then I was dead. It was incredibly frustrating!!

I'm not complaining about HA OP or anything like that and it certainly didn't have anything to do with the overshield............just saying that I finally start to understand what all the grief is about. Is there a feasible solution to this lag/performance differential (which is the more likely reason for my experience) or is it just something we have to get over and move on?

Your post is much appreciated.

As for solutions, I think Scr1nRusher has been on the leading edge of this:

1. Get rid of 0.75 ADS on all LMGs. All of them.
2. Remove SMGs from the Heavy's available weapon pool. Yeah, this is going to hit NC Heavies hardest.

Other proposed solutions have been offered, such as forcing Heavy Assault to choose between a primary weapon and a rocket launcher, but I'm not ready to commit to that just yet.

That issue is because of using a mouse. That will never go away as you cannot nerf people's reaction times.

Well, it's not actually an issue either.

A Gauss SAW can kill in three shots, at least two of which have to be headshots, right?

Hardly. This is not at all what the grief is about. You've defined nothing that specifies that the reason you failed was because he was an HA and you were not, at least none that would prohibit you from him having been a Medic with an Assault Rifle. This was not even a flanking failure on your part; I keep telling people, however, that successfully flanking your opponent is just one of the first steps.

But none of that would have helped him. There was no sidestepping, at least none that the OP made apparent. There was no SMG, as the OP identified the LMG as the weapon of kill. And the HA Shield was not a factor either. There is no cause that identifies this as an "HA being a privileged class" problem.

Just remove the the I win shield and give a little more health.

I took two shots and died to what I knew had to be a shotgun but it was 100% damage from an Orion. I'm sure server issues play a big part in the perception. Medkit tanking also makes people blame the shields.

He shoots just as many times on you as you do on him, but because its a client side game you will never "feel" it like that.
So, the 3 shots was not just 3 shots etc... Watch this:


Yes, it means that vs some people you have and edge and towards others you do not.
Yes, you can move and fight in a manner that increases your odds in a client side environment.
Yes, there are classes in PlanetSide 2 that takes this into context in an effort to try to mitigate the effect a bit for MOST players.
Ergo, why HA has over shield or cloakers have SMG and snipers which they did not have in PS1.

For the last time, this is not a class based arena game. This isn't about making Rogues and Priests and Paladins all equally viable choices. The Heavy Assault is just meant to be better than the other classes, and that's okay.
When you're playing Heavy Assault or MAX, your goal is to shoot people, and gain ground.
When you're playing Medic, your goal is to keep your Heavy Assaults moving.
When you're playing Engineer, your goal is to keep your Heavy Assaults supplied and ready to fight, and maybe give them a defensive fall-back position.
When you're playing Light Assault, your goal is to distract the enemies Heavy Assaults from your own Heavy Assaults, or keep the enemies Medics and Engineers from doing their job.
When you're playing Infiltrator, your goal is to show your Heavy Assaults where the enemy is, to disrupt your opponents medics and engies, and to hack out vehicle terminals to pull a spawn point to keep your Heavy Assaults coming.

The ideal squad is one Infil, one Engie, two or three Medics, and the rest Heavy Assault, with a sprinkling of Light Assaults to taste, and some MAX suits if resources aren't an issue. This isn't a problem... an ideal squad should be mostly combat specialists, with a minimum of support classes. Medics kill, and bring people back from the dead. Engies kill, and do pretty much everything else. Infils and LAs kill from unexpected directions. Heavy Assaults kill, and Superkill. That's their balance, that's what they get for being able to do pretty much nothing else.

Also, don't even start on the whole "Heavy should be an AV class". Engineers are far better at sustained and reliable AV damage (with their AV turrets) than Heavies could ever hope to be. Outside of a carefully planned, and dedicated, AV nest, a Heavy's AV capabilities are rarely little more than a defensive deterrent for vehicles getting too close to infantry. Engineers are the truly dedicated vehicle hunters.

The Heavy's biggest weakness is the Infiltrator... an EMP can de-shield a group of Heavies leaving them open for the slaughter.

And whats the difference to a group of anything else?
Thats like saying my weakness is getting shot because I die if it happens.

Or like the 'weakness' of vampires that they are basically petrified when staked through the heart (yes buffy did that wrong..)
Its not a weakness because it makes it easy to get rid of the vampire, its a "weakness" because nothing else works.

The heavy assault is a class focused on combat. Nothing wrong with that... yet.
Unfortunately hes is THE combat focused class, the supersoldier. There are only two things you can do in combat where the heavy ain't the topdog.
Flanking - that one goes to the LA.
Sniping - that one goes to the Infiltrator.

The rest:
General Infantry combat in close, medium and long distances (Access to SMGs Shotguns LMGs and Battlerifles in addition to the shield makes sure of that)
Taking or holding a chokepoint (Taking a chokepoint is going into a meatgrinder, only tankiness helps here. Guess who got it. On the other side the HA has access to LMGs with big mags which makes it extremely easy to suppress a chokepoint with constant fire)
Anti-Vehicle combat (Yes, engineers got the MANA AV, but one good sniper can easily suppress a dozen of them no such problem with the HA. Thats the same reason why are NOT the topdog at holding a chokepoint)
Air Defense (The one and only Infantry class who can do ANYTHING efficiently against air. Not counting ASPIS ofc)
Combating MAX units (C4, rockets and LMGs, not really a discussion...)
Tanking shots, or rather surviving in general (...)

All of THAT is the heavy assaults "specialty"
Even worse, he can do most of that AT THE SAME TIME WITH THE SAME LOADOUT.

Drawbacks: If he uses his ability to gain 70% more HP he moves 33(I think?) percent slower. But only if he uses it, no drawback like 100 less hp even if you don't use your ability.

I know im heavily stomping on some peoples toes with that, but the HA is simply ******** design.
I like being able to customize my layout, but there is a reason why Battlefield doesn't let the guy with the LMG have the RL too.
The MAX is an abomination that the balance designers didn't want, but that one at least is restricted by its cost.
The HA on the other hand is simply superior in the core aspect of the game, and that simply sucks.

i play engi almost exclusively and dont have this problem, HA is just as easy as any other class to kill

An interesting range of viewpoints, thanks. I guess I should have put more emphasis on my main query at the end, which is whether there is any feasible way to remove client side problems or compensate for them. I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned that he was an HA............and no, I wasn't using Engie in an assault role, I was actually looking for someone to support and I ran around a rock to see this guy standing there.

But thanks again.

There are a few networking techniques that could be used to improve performance, but there isn't really a "Best of both worlds" solution that is commercially available at this point, at least that I know of.

OT:
As an engi main, I don't find HAs that hard to kill. Yes, they're harder to kill than the rest of the classes, but only slightly if you're a decent shot and use positioning to your advantage. Angle, range, and tactics are key. Most people expect to take them head to head in close quarters. The class is designed to handle that specific situation, so yeah, you're gonna lose if you're playing to your opponent's strength.

I do feel like they could lower the base movement speed of the class though. I have no issue with them being strong or even having .75 ADS weapons, but I think that they're too fast as a whole to be considered "Heavy". Slowing them down would also tackle the .75ADS complaints across the board while maintaining some variety in LMGs.

OP.



AIM FOR THE HEAD.

Anchor OP

I find my outlook to be a little different than most people, since I used to be very frustrated about the power HA gets.

However, I've found myself playing HA for a pretty considerable amount of time, just because It's the simplest way to, well, counter HA.

The problem, to me, is that HA gets used more than any other class, and there really isn't much differentiation in HA playstyle, so fights got boring over time.

I'd prefer a game that is balanced around needing many different playstyles than just encouraging an "I have the right tool for almost every situation" style.

Sorry for the crappy wording, but hopefully I got my point across. I may make a more refined post regarding playstyles later.

I really don't get what all the fuss is about. I don't play heavy. I run engie in an assault format if I am not flying. I can count on 2 hands the number of times I completely got the drop on a heavy, landed all my shots, and still had him spin and kill me. Sometimes I'll start in on a heavy in the back and the one or two shots I send to the head (I usually aim for the neck and let recoil adjust me from there) will fly wide right or left (yay bloom!) but that is just the luck on the draw. And yes sometimes I will run into a heavy and we will start shooting each other at about the same time and he pops his shield and wins -- but again that's the point behind the heavy.

So yeah -- it sucks dieing, but I really don't get this whole "heavy op" thing.

My thoughts on the subject are that if you dont feel its fair then you can make it fair by switching to a heavy your self. Its not as if the class is locked behind a cert wall or anything. Dont want to switch class? Then you will just have to adapt and change tactics because obviously running head first into lmg bullets isn't working for you.

This whole thing is clearly just a case of "it killed me once so it must be op"

• Yes - I said clearly that it only happened once and that it changed my persepctive on the well worn debate
• and No - my post is manifestly not an HA OP whine, just that I now recognise that circumstances (whatever they are) were adverse and whether something could be done about them (switching to HA is not one - been there, done that, bought the composite)

Thanks WeRelic, that's what I was wondering

Personally (And this is coming from someone with 90-95% Engineer playtime) I would say that this is a good thing. As an Engineer, you attacked a Heavy Assault who responded instantly to the threat. He was playing a class intended to be a front-line bruiser, and you were playing what is intended to be a support class. What faction was the heavy, and do you know what weapon he used? What weapon were you using? If he had a CQB oriented LMG, and you had a long-range oriented carbine, that would certainly explain things.

To sum up my opinion on this overall discussion: Heavies are a front line combat class, and the edge they have in terms of survivability is relatively minor (In my opinion, at least - I don't see the overshield as overpowered in most situations, given their exclusively combat oriented class goal)

I was replying to this, but my post kept going on and on, so... I made it a thread. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/lmg-stats-balance-rework-ideas.233578/ for if you're interested.