I hate to be that guy, but...

So, SOE highlighted a video today showcasing the Sunderer's armor-killing potential with a dual Fury loadout.



Furies, Bulldogs, and the viability of the battle bus for armor hunting in general needs to be toned down. Despite the fact that it's probably not as effective for general-purpose AV as a tank due to range limitations, it shouldn't be possible to effectively engage an appropriately outfitted 2/2 AV tank under any circumstance. The Fury's description explicitly states that it's capable of dealing "light" damage to armor. Its TTK against vehicles needs to be comparable, if not inferior, to the Basilisk. Instead, it's capable of virtually instagibbing them at close range.

I can't possibly imagine why the Fury, the Bulldog, and the viability of the battle sunderer for tank hunting in general have all managed to elude the nerf bat thus far, but SOE's decision to highlight the video above demonstrates that, in their view, nothing is wrong. I hate to be the one to call for more nerfs, but this is one of those common-sense things that somehow hasn't been addressed for a very, very long time. An infantry carrier should never pose a serious threat to armor units.

I was gunning for a fury/blockade battle bus when the driver decided to charge headlong into the teeth of 3 magriders. Before I could finish thinking "whoah! thats so aggressive! we are going to die!" the 3 magriders had been turned into smoking wreckage, and the bus was barely even damaged. Sure, the magriders derped hard in that situation, but the fact still remains that the dual fury bus is just waaay too strong.

The MBT which has over double the resource cost and is specifically designed to be the apex predator of ground vehicles should be able to effectively 1v1 the cheap/fast transport vehicle. That is the MBTs main role- to kill Sunderers, Lightnings & to fight other MBTs.

Another issue is how hard it is to pin down a bang bus and finish it off- the harasser can hit & run but it is fragile enough that you have a good chance of killing it before it can run away if it gets too cocky. A properly fitted out battle-bus can charge in close, farm away with the furies, then as soon as it gets to smoke a little the driver just races off and repairs, and the enemy ground vehicles can't really chase it down unless they do so in a medium-large sized group, because if its just one or two chasing after it the bus can park and outrep the damage while its gunners destroy the pursuing vehicles.

I don't see a problem.

It's a 3/3 vehicle equipped very specifically to do one thing: Attack armor at close range.

It happens to be doing very well at that. What it doesn't do:
Kill well at medium range.
Kill at all at long range.
Function unless there are 3 players showing teamwork.
Defend itself against air.
Defend itself against 3 other players working in coordination. (3 lightnings would wreck the battle bus)
Function as an AMS which would require it being stationary.
Defend itself against infantry which are hard to hit with the Fury.

The Sundy Fury, Bulldog, and Basilisk are all well balanced. Showing a "best of" video where someone had a good run doesn't suddenly make any given weapon OP.

You could put dual .50cal guns with thermals on there, shred infantry for 20 minutes and claim it's OP against infantry. Then the contrary argument would be: It does nothing vs armor, air, etc, etc..

The dual fury battle bus has always been good at attacking armor. There are reason's you don't see them that often though. Other limitations.

its strong as AI ESF - you can endlessly farm unprotected bases, but you can get even close to massive fights with AA

That's precisely the point. There's no legitimate reason for a battle sundy loadout to be viable against enemy tanks, given the role and resource cost of both vehicles relative to one another. However, we clearly see tanks being virtually instagibbed in the video above from weapons whose description states, erroneously, that they're capable of "doing light damage" to enemy vehicles. Something is very, very wrong. The Fury's damage needs to be *halved* against tanks. Ditto with respect to the Bulldog.

I stopped taking you seriously at that point. The Fury's primary purpose is not to engage enemy armor, and neither is the Sunderer in general as a vehicle platform.

The Fury's purpose is to serve as a viable AI weapon, and to deal *light damage* to enemy vehicles in a pinch. When your tank's health depletes faster than you can blink from the receiving end of a dual Fury loadout, the weapon isn't doing "light damage" -- it's dishing out major, catastrophic damage.

Except the bus can endlessly farm heavily defended bases full of things that are supposed to be able to kill said bus. AA is an effective ESF deterrent. AV is not really an effective Battlebus deterrent, so the comparison doesn't hold water.

Fair enough.

I didn't take you seriously the moment you held up the nerf bat either but I did take the time to consider your points. You might try the same.

Until then, You hate to be that guy but.... You are.

You have no point. The Sunderer is an extremely cheap, spammable, and durable vehicle whose AI options coincidentally have the capacity to deal major damage to enemy vehicles. Compare that to a 450-resource main battle tank whose specific purpose is to engage and destroy enemy vehicles with the proper loadout, which struggles to survive against cheap troop transports that, at close range, can virtually instagib enemy armor. The Fury's description explicitly states that it's capable of doing "light damage" to enemy armor. That's blatantly untrue. It deals substantial armor damage, and it boasts the survivability to absorb a 2/2 AV tank's full wrath at close range.

Better speed, better traction, better all round but more than anything else.... Dedicated driver #

I love it when players legally exploit the game mechanics in ways never thought of by item creators....

Eve online, evolve or die.... Or scream for a nerf

i'd suggest instead of directly nerfing the Sunderer's general armor resistance, health pool or weapon damage output, they should just make it much more susceptible to tanks' AP rounds. that way, Battle Sunderers will still be feared by most ground troops but AP Lightnings/MBTs will be the hardcounter to them, eating them pretty much alive within seconds. that said, i am baffled anyway why AP rounds' increased damage only applies to tank armor and not to all ground vehicles

Needs to have the resistance to AP rounds toned down. AV tanks could potentially get a good role in be the best at taking out AMSes and general Sunderers.

I don't know about that. To a degree, the Sunderer should be somewhat resilient to AP rounds in order to prevent suicidal tank charges into spawn sundies from becoming a viable tactic. It wouldn't be exceptionally difficult to remove Blockade's arbitrary rear resistance while toning down the armor damage of Bulldogs and Furies, and it certainly wouldn't harmfully alter the game's current ground vehicle balance. It'd simply reinforce the intended role of the Sunderer as a troop transport and a mobile spawn.

The hard counter to this is one ESF. How difficult is that? You want a nerf for something that has that glaring of a counter?

Personally I'd love to see Basilisks move up in the world. As it sits currently the Fury and Bulldog perform too well on AI and AV and the only remote advantage Basilisks have is AA, which is a joke of course but not something the Fury/Bulldog can really attempt.

Should the Battle Bus be a threat? Absolutely.
Should it be superior or even equal to an MBT equipped for AV while still having inane anti-infantry prowess? I'm hard pressed to say yes.

Basilisks are powerful enough against ground vehicles. They're about where the Fury and the Bulldog ought to be as far as armor killing potential. Right now, the Basilisk has almost no reason to exist, since it's hilariously bad against infantry while also being sub-par against armor in comparison to the Fury or the Bulldog.

Can't have that and be a viable spawn point at the same time. Already AP based MBTs and Vulcan harassers take one down in under 5 seconds giving no time to people to respond.

Perhaps the roles should be more defined and a battle bus should lose the AMS capability, though I don't see how an actual "battle bus" should be weaker than a spawn point version.

You could just buff the deploy shield to compensate the deployed AMS for not having as much HP/armour. This allows you to nerf the battle bus without nerfing the deploy bus.

Of course this leaves non-shield deploy buses in an awkward position.... but that helps to solve the problem of people deploying their dumb ammo or repair bus in the area I want to deploy my proper shield bus in (which is really irritating)

its not comparison, it example. why i dont see a lot battlebuses around? why people still using tanks while battlebus is so OP?
one crew trolling tanks in low pop battle - put mines on road, use tank as bait, make it follow into trap...

If you actually read what I said it already addresses many of the things you just mentioned.

The fury isn't the AI option. That's the 50cal. If you want some AI with a bit of AV then you go bulldog or Basilisk. If you want AV with some residual AI then you go Fury. The Fury is the closest thing the Sundy has to an AV weapon.

Which brings the next point: "At close range". The fury sucks at medium range while firing to/from moving targets. It's only useful at long range if the target is stationary and allows you to get away with multiple bracket shots.

Please also keep the hyperbole to a low roar... It does not instagib a tank.

It takes some 17-25 shots depending on which side of the armor you are hitting. Even firing two Furys at once it assumes a lot: Every round hits (only happening at short range). Three players are engaging (2 gunners and a driver). Driver gets the drop (which you see in the video a lot).

Also in the hyperbole category: Survivability to a 2/2 AV tank's full wrath. I think what you mean is: It's a tough vehicle (4k hitpoints, 45% absorbtion) which I would agree.

Think what's really happening in a anti-vehicle tank. 1250+ dmg per shot. 1k dmg/shot from 2nd gunner. In a straight up shootout the tank is going to win despite the Sundy having an extra player.

TL;DR....

I don't see a problem. Balance is fine.