Are MAX units good for the game?

Are force multipliers good for the overall game? In this case the MAX

Now I understand the reason for force multipliers.

A) To offer under pop fights a chance to even the odds
and
B) A way to offer lower skilled players a chance against higher skilled players. To offer a way that they can fight back and feel they have a chance <------ This is not supposed to come across as flame bait even though it may sound it, and just to clarify that this is not flame bait I consider myself to be lower than average skill

The issue is
A) It offers the same if not more power to the over pop fights making the intended "balancing" of the fight even more tilted in favor of the zerg

B) If gives over all more power to the better/ more experienced player than it does the new or lower skilled


Discuss

That's the very reason you couldn't pull MAXes from AMSs in PlanetSide 1.
[Only way to get them in an enemy base was to hack an equipment terminal or get them from the nearest base or drop them from a Galaxy/bring them with a Sunderer (maximum of two MAX seats though)].

Force multiplies should be hard to use, or have huge drawbacks, but instead what we have is superinfantry unit that is almost as fast as regular infantry.

For me it lacks enough disadvantages for its power.
It should simply not be able to sprint at all.
BAR's should half their HP.

Give them something to fear and now we are talking rock paper scissors instead of shotgun.

Atm its C4 fairy only? Yeah lets just go into the exact range they want us (especially with NC) and try blow them up.

I think, overall, the existence of MAX units and Vehicles are good because it helps draw in and retain players that otherwise may not enjoy the game as much.

Sometimes I too like to use Vehicles (MAXs less so but sometimes they can be a fun change of pace) but often lately I just find myself self-selecting a lot of engagements. If I am at a base and the opposition is bringing or has way more vehicles and I do not want to get one of my own then I just redeploy and look elsewhere. Likewise, if I am in the field and start spotting MAX units then I will often do my best to ignore/circumvent them rather than engage- too many and just like with vehicles I will redeploy elsewhere.

True, it can be a little tedious at times trying to find a battle that you enjoy and, yes, very often what was a fun battle will turn into a not so fun battle but it has always been like this for me in PS2. Since I do not see as many outfit mates on as I used to it is easier to go where I please and do what I please but it does come at the cost of being less effective- in it's heyday my outfit was pretty effective so I would often follow and "do what I was told" (i.e. play to the objective as strategically as possible) but these days I tend to ignore the supposed game objectives and just look for fun. Since I prefer playing LA and dislike the shallowness of C4'ing vehicles that usually means searching for infantry-centric engagements.

I think that it would already help if maxes weren't so widely available and were slower. Pulling a max crash from an AMS is ridiculous if you ask me. They should only be available from equipment terminals, this will make equipment terminals that aren't inside spawn rooms more valuable as well. And on top of that they need their speed reduced. I never feel slow as a max, ever. My max sprint speed is almost as high as that of a regular infantry player. I should get more firepower and health, but seriously lack any form of speed.
If anyone thinks that it's stupid to make it so that they can only be pulled from equipment terminals because that will give attackers a disadvantage because all of the derps always destroy the terminals, I also think that infiltrators should be able to hack destroyed turrets/terminals to make them repairable by friendly engineers. It's something that should've already been implemented.

Yes, they prevent large fights from stagnating. Have you ever been in a 3 hour biolab fight? It's a massive tug of war - many enjoy this, but they are black holes of personnel that platoon leaders tend to despise. Max crashes are the only way to occasionally break up such fights, and even then, vehicular interference at neighboring bases is typically the only way to lock down transporters / pads for long enough for maxes to get anything done.

My point here, is that like vehicles - they help keep things moving along lattice lines, and prevent stagnation in areas where other vehicles cannot.

I agree with your other points, and I personally think maxes should be slightly more expensive (Provided they are given slightly more survivability versus certain things, and less versus others. Introducing a new weapon type that's ineffective against most targets, but shreds maxes, would be ideal. Allow people to specialize in max hunting, and a greater degree of preparation will be possible, as opposed to the current crap shoot of zergtasticness. )

'offer lower skill players a chance'
sounds like you haven't played MAX too much. not as easy as it looks.

I agree they can but this is more a case of bad base design and poor lattice links ----> Mao -> Abandoned NS Offices -> Howling Pass..... I am looking at you with evil eyes

This should not be a problem solved through needing to MAX crash a building but instead adding more options for engagement.

For example maybe entry holes in the top of the Bio Lab for LA's to enter. They would have shields that prevent bullets and explosives from passing through for obvious reasons but this would mean defenders couldn't so easily camp a landing pad or teleporter room for 6 hours. Another thing they could do is move at least 1 capture point outside of all bio labs

Just C4 + shotgun in da face the bitciz.

Seriously though, I kinda like the idea of PS1 style: can't spawn maxes from sunderers.
Make sense.

Both these points are flawed.
Why should an underpop side even be able to go on even ground against higher pop?

For example, I, the platoon leader, went through the trouble of assembling a platoon of 48 people, so we can for sure dismantle the underpopped defenders, just to be broken apart by two MAX squads. How is that any fair to me?

Why should a lower skill player be on even ground with a higher skill player?
After I, the experience player, went through all the trouble of playing this game for two years, studying, learning, perfecting myself. Why should I be killed by a newbie with a MAX? How is that any fair to me?

Even if somehow these points would make sense, then at least they should be enforced properly.
If MAXes are there to help bad players, but not to make good players even better, then MAXes should only be available to bad players.
If MAXes exist so underpop side can fight on equal ground, then MAXes should only be available to underpopped side.

Introducing this rule would be a good start.

It's a problem with the base design, not with the game itself. Biolabs only have several entrances, easily camped. If, for example, you could enter a biolab from any point along its perimeter, they would be much easier to take.

And again. Biolab is a defendable base. In real life, it is considered that 4 attackers are required per 1 defending soldier. The fact that you indeed can take a biolab with insufficient numbers, but by using the MAXes, is evidence of poor game mechanics.

Obviously, PlanetSide 2 is a game, and adjustments should be made. But to the bases. If a base is too hard to take without MAXes, it's the base's problem, not a justification for the existence of the OP farming crutch.

Only if you believe the only reason the MAX exists is to give the underpopulated side a defensive boost. There isn't a weapon in this game that hasn't been flipped, that whatever innate defensive utility was intended from its application can be subverted into an equally powerful offensive application or as cheese. Especially when it is applied in numbers.

This is one of those things that's somewhere between "there's no helping it" and "that's how it should be." It is quite difficult to hobble a class such that it remains useful, whether or not in just a limited respect, but the output from the class is the same regardless of the skill level and experience of the person fighting with it. This gap really isn't possible to escape. Even a PS1 MAX, in the hands of someone whom knows how to use it, is harder to handle with its counters while a PS1 MAX in the hands of someone whom doesn't know how to apply it properly will fall to three Decimator rockets to the face from one enemy. The only thing you can really do is accommodate the lower skilled player by not making the gap as wide. At the same time, you don't want to completely invalidate the efforts of someone genuinely trying hard to perform to the best of his abilities.

You could argue that all force multipliers in the game are easy to apply. The MAX is hardly egregious in its perceived status as "easy to use."
I'd be fine with not being able to use the same sprinting mechanics as Infantry and just be forced to lumber in between bursts of Charge.

"Dread" is the more appropriate word to describe people's reactions in this game to actual threats, even their counters. As a MAX, I dread a lot of things. Heavy Assault encounters, Light Assault encounters, encounters with other MAXes, Vehicular encounters. There are times that even Medics and Engineers are causes for great concern. Infiltrators are the least concerning, though they can offer their own sort of threat, not only when I am low on health but also by taking advantage of the things that I can not do as a MAX. I now have reason to be concerned about C4, rockets, grenades (AV grenade is powerful even with flak armor and concussion greandes are utterly debilitating), and any number of innocuous things that can be turned into a trap.
Despite what you would call "fear" I still have to dutifully bludgeon into these engagements. It's expected of me.

(I also wish people would stop using the "rock paper scissors" metaphor for things in this game. It doesn't work if the scissor could ever beat the rock, and, in this game, the scissors are always allowed to fight back or, at least, evade the rock. Even if an acceptable counter doesn't work 100% of the time because of user error or failure to apply, that doesn't make it stop being an acceptable counter. Even the MAX doesn't work 100% of the time because of user error or failure to apply.)

I agree with the general sentiment in the thread so far that MAXes should not be able to be pulled from AMSes. A potential exception might be made available for Dual Bursters only but I don't know how much re-writing of the menu/terminal system you would need to make that work.

Rockets launchers, AV grenades(or grenades in general), C4, mines, and small arms fire. Most people are more concerned with their KDR though, which means they flee rather than putting as many bullets into it as possible. Learn the counters, and learn them well, and you'll see MAX units aren't all that scary. You should still treat them with respect, but remember you can respawn, he or she can't.

MAXes are leftovers from PS1 where they actually worked, because of things that PS2 doesent have inadvertently affected MAX balance in a positive way.
Things that are not tied to just MAXes damage, timers and health.

-Like not being able to pull them from AMSs.
-Advanced Medics had 0 range on their medical tool and werent as many as in PS2.
Reviving someone cost Medic Tool ammo, and not everyone would bother to specialize in Advanced Medic (the only ones who could revive)
-Armor Piercing bullets that everyone could use dealt extra damage to MAXes.
-Repairs took longer to do. You had to stand still, or you couldnt be repaired by the 0 range repair tool.
Repair tools had ammo and had to reload.
-You didnt have suit slots. So MAXes couldnt auto-repair, carry extra ammo, resist more flak/bullets.
-Players only had a limited amount of certs (~27 i think) to spend on things. Certing into Uni-MAX cost 6 of those certs.
So less people played MAX. The fact that it was more balanced made it even less tempting.

There are more things, but the point is that lots of things that made MAXes balanced in PS1 are not in PS2.
They seem to try and balance them around resources, when (imo) they should be looking at other ways to balance the readily available MAX.

I can agree with this, I had a multi-paragraph analysis of biolab base design, complete with suggestions and revamp ideas in Ideas & Suggestions, which has since been exploded.

The intent of Maxes appears to have been to grant a resource-consuming vehicle for Infantry which allows for the engagement of any target, provided the correct loadout is in place. While this has definitely been accomplished, the individual power of each max is such that it makes 1v1 encounters trivial in almost all scenarios.

Many have suggested solutions, and while a revamp of base design would be ideal, I don't see this as an option that can be implemented in any realistic amount of time. Maxes are a necessary evil in the game as it stands, and perhaps base design can be corrected eventually.

As for my own thoughts, I am quite supportive of denying MAX spawn access at AMS Sundies, in favor of requiring an actual infantry terminal. Perhaps an AMS-accessable L-Max unit would be good here, (Light Max) that has restricted access to loadouts, and allows only AV / AA , with reduced max ammo capacity (AI capable AV things such as pounders would have to suffer a balance pass here, perhaps downscale them vs AI, or just grant a L-MAX version, similar to what was done to harasser ES gear.)

That said, I have personally had no problems with MAXes, either facing them, or using them myself. They are a part of the game, and everyone has access. As someone that vocally supported Liberator nerfs (I think these nerfs were OVERdone, but that's SOE's par for the course, has been since the original EQ beta) I personally think that very few aspects of MAXes need to be addressed - faction imbalance exists, and as someone who plays all three factions, I can find good gear for every slot, at almost all ranges / scenarios.

Restrict access locations, add in an L-Max type thing with reduced AI potency, etc... I feel these would be fair implementations of any potential max nerfs, although they would grant a disproportionate amount of firepower to defenders, especially with the recent redeploy mechanics / spawn timer changes. Perhaps add in an AMS cert to allow for full-MAX spawning?

Eh, anything but nerfs. Increased complexity and anything that rewards planning and preparation would be preferable.

Edit: Hey, I like rambling, although it's possible I am rather caffinated at the moment.

The idea of MAX units is good for the game...just the things we have now aren't really the same as that idea. They're basically "Uber Infantry"

And people say heavies are OP ;P

MAXes are not and should not be force multipliers.

A force multiplier is anything that makes a smaller force equal or exceeds a larger force. For example, IRL the training that the US military gets is a force multiplier, as well as their equipment (weapons and armor). We do not have anything like that in PS2. That's why 12 to 12, 24 to 24, and 48 to 48 battles are roughly even. It comes down to strategy, skill, and coordination.

Every infantry class in this game has a means of wrecking your day. Every infantry class has a weakness you need to exploit to succeed. MAXes are no different.

These threads suggesting that MAXes are good or bad for the game are rather pointless. MAXes are Planetside 2. If they weren't good for the game and taken out, why not take out light assaults, medics, and Engies too? Why not make it so you have a Carbine, a Pistol, and thats it? Some people would like that. But I wouldn't. And many others wouldn't. And the game would die. Because that isn't what PS2 is.

Planetside 2 is a asymmetrical game with different assets. Its not only asymmetrical in factions, but in how you can approach the battle.

Personally, I feel that the MAX is balanced versus air and vehicles, but OP against infantry.

Your point is moot. MAXes can still be a part of the game without being OP farming crutch. Or you like them that way, and that's what you mean by "are PlanetSide2"? The farming simulator?

I think it's more the availability of them.

1. I'd like MAXes to cost different amounts depending on where you spawn them. From cheapest to most expensive: Warpgate --> non-front-line facility --> front line facility --> AMS. This means that Galaxy dropping a base with MAXes from the warpgate, and all the extra time and risks of that, is rewarded comapred to redeployside.
2. I'd like the MAX cost reduction bonus from Hossin to be reduced a bit, maybe -33%.
3. I'd like resource generation to be reduced by a certain amount while you are using a MAX to reduce chain pulling, and increase the incentive to play infantry. You get a +%age for being underpopulated already, there is no reason they couldn't add a -% for being a MAX. The same change could be made to vehicles.

There are a few other changes I'd like to MAX mechanics, and I'm not sure charge should be such an effective "get out of jail" card for when you position badly, but those are the simplest to implement. Nothing wrong with MAXes being in the game, but I'd like changes. Also, if we want to reduce the grenade spam, we would need to reduce the power/availability of MAXes at the same time, as nerfing grenade spam would also be nerfing one of the most important MAX counters.