ESFs are not direct counters to liberators. So what is?

Here are my thoughts on the subject...

First off I love flying the liberator and right now I think the Air vs Air game is dynamic and fun and I really do not think it needs to be touched much, but rather how people view the air game needs to change. I absolutely love going head to head vs other Liberators, rolling and diving in order to out position the other guy and would hate to see that changed, because those are unique fights and are not the same as an ESF vs ESF dog fights. It offers variety in Air vs Air combat and with the upcoming changes to Galaxies its going to get even better.

I do not think a single ESF should be able to beat a 2/3 Lib and especially not a 3/3 lib, because if we balance the game along those lines then Liberators are going to be run out of the skies.

I think the best counter to a Liberator is another liberator or 2 ESF working together and like it or not, that is balanced. If the enemy brings in Air, and it is more then your ground based AA can handle, then you absolutely need to have friendly Air come in to counter that attack.

Dalton Liberators are ESF hunters, this has been proven by statistics. Daltons kill more ESFs than any other vehicle.

Of course they will not balance that out on Libs, because Libs are an "exception", and ESFs, well, nerf ESFs, because ESFs.

The last stats I saw ESF's kill far more ESF's than Daltons.

Currently, that is not the case. Assuming that the lib pilot and gunner are actually good, you are going to get daltoned out of the sky in no time. The only way to combat libs atm is hit and run attacks, coming in from the top/rear. A good lib gunner can rack in ESF kills easily with the shredder. You should not have unskilled lib pilots working in to ESF battles, but currently it works.

That's the largest problem I have with the liberator ATM, aside from the Zephyr doing noticeable damage to armor. But I'm not going into that right now.

The Dalton is a reportedly Anti-Tank weapon, ESF nose guns are reportedly Anti-Air weapons.

Daltons kill more ESFs than MBTs.

Follow that logic when:

AP Rounds killed MUCH more Infantry than Tanks -> Nerf
Coyotes killed more infantry than ESFs -> Nerf
Falcons killed more infantry than Vehicles -> Nerf
Noseguns killed (not even that much) infantry -> Nerf

Daltons should have been nerfed against ESFs long ago.

By that logic they should nerf rockets as well
But then the skillless COD bastards will quit.
NERF THE NERF HAMMER!

Rocketpods have been nerfed more than twice

More than 3 times..
wait, I don't even know how many times they have been nerfed

Tbh, I am totally fine with the Rocketpods. At their current state, they are "just" there, perhaps they still allow too much infantry farming. When I "don't care", I strap rocketpods and go infantry murdering.

Whatever, nerf rocketpods once again.

This doesn't change that Daltons are still ridiculous killing more ESFs than MBTs themselves, that, has no explanation.

The explanation is that the majority of ESF's are bad and that Liberators are punished for trying to attack ground targets over air.

Also, can I get a link to the stats you're using? I haven't seen any of the updated numbers for awhile.

as a skyguard driver i personally think the ESF could use some better ground attack capabilities. i kind of miss the days where a coordinated pair of ground attack fighters would give my lightning a hard fight and possibly even kill me.

right now the biggest problem i ever have with ESF is the fact that i can't see through the smoke trails and explosions of the endless streams of rockets from 3 or more ESF.

a few days ago i sat out on a rock in front of howling pass on the desert side and scored 15,000xp killing mosquitoes. the sky was full because EXE (one of the largest TR outfits) decided to dump all of their air resources on one giant attack. there were at least 10 rocket passes on my lightning. there were some heroic engineers that charged out of the base into the fire and brimstone to repair me a little and keep me going, but as expected they never lasted long. there were at least 2 dozen (this is a very heavy under estimation of the air force i face) mossies in the air and at least a quarter of them were focused on killing me. i killed them all without ever even being lit on fire. then i drove back inside the base and reloaded. that ain't right.

Most decent ESF pilots can kill a 2/3 Dalton lib in a 1 vs 1 if they are in an AA Variant and 2 ESF's can easily kill a Dalton lib. But like I said the hard counter to a liberator is another liberator. I run Shredder / Walker, Hyenas, Bulldogs and I kill Dalton liberators easily especially if I have the Walker or Hyenas in the back, its always a good fight, I generally win, because I always fly with 2 gunners and generally keep AA on the back.

There are so few Dalton gunners that can hit an ESF out of the sky, that it is mostly a non issue, and in most cases it should take at least 2 ESF to kill a single Liberator and if 2 ESF can't kill a dalton Lib they would have to be really bad. Also If you are an AA Liberator Variant there is no reason you should die to a Dalton Lib, unless you and your crew are completely clueless or you make wrong move, it can happen but its not the norm.

There are so many different liberator combinations now, it really allows the player to specialize, not only by weapon types, but also by utility - Composite or Auto Repair / Fire Suppression or Afterburner and they are all good choices.

AA Liberator - Shredder / Walker, Hyenas
AV/AA Liberator - Dalton / Walker, Hyenas
AV Liberator - Dalton / Bulldog, Drakes
AI Liberator - Zephry / Bulldog
AI / Utility - Shredder / Bulldog

The Liberator in my opinion is in a good place right now. The Hard counter is another Liberator and depending on the type of liberator it may take any where from 1 - 3 ESF, depending on the ESF load out and/or skill level. I think once we see the Galaxy update coming in the next few months, we are going to see some epic Air vs Air battles, with the Galaxy being the center of of an Air squad, with both Liberators and ESF supporting that unit.

If you can't kill a lib in a ESF you need to practice more.

i could say the exact same thing about my decimator.

considering that the stock esf noseguns kill more you're just blatantly lying

I did not take the statistics out of my well.... mind.

Sum up what the Dalton kills on that sheet, you'll get that.

it's the 11th cause of esf deaths... not the 1st

I'm not talking about the death cause of ESFs, I'm talking about what Dalton kills. And it kills more ESFs than anything else.

We all know that when a weapon overperforms (and on this case, performs on a completely different field other than the one stated in the weapon's description) on a field it wasn't designed for, it is nerfed on that field.

That happened to AP rounds and infantry, AP rounds velocity and aircraft (prowler velocity nerf), HEAT rounds and Armor (versus AP), Lightning Default cannon versus armor, Falcon versus infantry, ESF noseguns versus armor and infantry and many many others.

The only one that has not followed the tendency is the Dalton, which continues to act on a field it wasn't designed for, PRIMARILY targeting AIR (esf) (while it is an anti-tank weapon), and letting MBTs in second place by a clear margin.

Like I've said before, this is because libs can't kill lots of tank because of flak

also air hunting in libs is fun, unlike groundpounding, anyway

I'm confused why a dalton shouldn't one shot esfs, perhaps we could make the lib drop more when it's upside down, but when was the last time you got dalton'd while they were upside down?

The only change that needs to happen is for soe to undo the hover afterburn activation penalty

The AA Dalton argument again? I used to be very much against it, but I see it more of an annoyance than unbalanced now. Dogfighting = fun. Getting popped out of nowhere = not fun.

That's all I'm going to invest into that argument. Moving on.

An ESF of equal skill will most definitely have the edge on a liberator. Now if you have a 3/3 liberator with a shredder/walker combo who's dedicated to AA and has been practicing that style, you may have a problem. But in that case, grab a couple of ESF buddies and he's pretty much dead unless you all funnel straight into his guns.

A skilled lib may be able to escape to friendly lines from an ESF. Two is a stretch, and three you're pretty much dead.

I don't fly ESF, when I fly I fly lib.

I still stand by my point that Liberators are supposed to be BOMBERs not A2A fighters. If you gave them gravity bombs instead of the Belly Cannon, and a more capable tailgun(flak) its role would be better defined as A2G close air support. which is what a BOMBER should be.
Give the bomber a forward facing view with reticle, with vertical motion to allow for bomb stacking. PS 1 style.

Think A-10 here. In, boom boom, and out....

I love flying libs, dont get me wrong. but I would love for its role to be better defined as A2G.
This would better define the role of ESFs as well as the counter for them.