I keep hearing this call about being "useful to your team" by players who only want things to go their way and by being "useful to their team" means they get all the kills and have all the fun, their "team mates" are just there for decoration. Just because you get a group of players all trying to kill another group of players does not equate to teamwork but it's great to use as a point for an argument when you have nothing of substance anywhere else. To say infi's don't help the team is just a red herring. Is anyone arguing that? No not at all and if anyone says it, tell them to make a new post on teamwork and try to actually stick to the points being discussed here. Basically they are saying "Sniper bullets to the head should one shot kill" "no they shouldn't because Infi's don't help with teamwork" "errrr.....did well at school did you?"
You mean you have the ability to suck things up to experience, to realize that life just isn't fair sometimes and that's just the way things roll? No! I demand you stamp your feet and demand everything go your way - you're entitled you know.
Hmm... I wasn't even aware that Luperza held such views upon one hit kill weapons; something I find deeply concerning since she's the only developer that I'm aware of who once used the class. This leaves me wondering who amongst the development team actually plays as an Infiltrator and understands the balancing mechanics of sniping in general? If we have no representative within the team, then we might be looking at this unique playing style taking a skydive within the future. I've been a dedicated sniper in every first person shooter I've played, and the inability to land one hit kills as a sniper completely defeats the entire purpose of the concept. I suppose that I'll reiterate how snipers are balanced once more within this thread, and then do so in the Infiltrator update thread as well...in order to try and instill a bit of reason amongst the development team in fear that this is actually a communal opinion amongst a primarily run and gun oriented crew...I truly hope not. First off, I'd like to explain the difference between balancing run and gun oriented classes and snipers in general. The latter aren't balanced within the same way that you would, for example, a Heavy Assault. These classes are balanced through their capabilities to kill between deaths because they are always within the heat of battle. It's the more commonly understood method of balancing because it's shared amongst several classes whereas sniping is but a single facet of first person shooter games. If one of these classes becomes capable of killing too many people between deaths...they're typically considered overpowered and must be adjusted accordingly. So, the risk towards them getting killed is increased in order to further balance their ability to kill...a kill to death method of balance. Sniping isn't balanced this way. Unlike your run and gun oriented players, snipers set up position within locations that exceed the typical capabilities for your gunning classes. While our one hit kill capabilities may seem to be overpowered, and are quite frustrating to players who don't understand the methodology of being instantly killed by someone you can rarely ever see let alone retaliate against, we're balanced by the time it takes between kills. This method is used due to the fact that we are not within the heat of battle, and so trying to balance us through our deaths is both foolish and impossible to do without destroying the fundamental purpose of sniping itself. It takes time to establish an adequate point that overlooks the battlefield. It takes time for those targets to enter into our killzone. It takes time for those targets to stop moving so that we can land a perfect headshot. Combined with these factors, we also have: The chance that the target moves even slightly, resulting in a complete miss. The chance that our miss lands a body shot, revealing the direction of our established point. The chance that the battle moves completely during the time it takes us to establish that point that we picked out. If any of these situations occur, we have now spent even more time between kills. So, as you can see, we are balanced through the sheer volume of time it takes for us to obtain these headshots. The mechanics behind sniping are a method of making this even more challenging for the sniper: hence scope sway, bullet drop, and this horribly short breathing mechanic. Those who run and gun severely estimate their ability to make our jobs difficult by doing the one thing that they should be doing to begin with...limiting the amount of time they are holding still. This is why you will see Combat Medics dancing around, because they are trying to make our job extremely frustrating. ...and it works. Now, you have your individuals who make claims towards us being out in the middle of nowhere doing absolutely nothing to benefit our faction. Not only is this downright silly, it's completely wrong and based upon little more than a failure to understand the entire purpose behind sniping...the assassination of high priority targets. Those defense turrets weren't repaired because we killed the engineers doing so. Those engineers who were using an AP or AA turret died because we took them out. Those heavy assault troops trying to blow your tank apart from the walls of their base were taken out by us either before they had the chance or to ensure that they didn't do so to the next poor vehicle. Those tanks you nearly destroyed only to watch as they dashed behind an obstruction didn't return because we killed the Engineer/Driver who jumped out to repair it. Now a light assault can finish the job. Those MAX units who were boldly trampling into battle got a bit shaken up and withdrew because we took out the Engineers repairing them. Those infantry clutches that keep you at a standstill didn't just get pushed back through your sheer perseverance...we took out the medics who were healing and reviving fallen comrades giving you the ability to push on forward into the base. This is what sniping is meant to accomplish, and while other types of Infantry can periodically accomplish these acts themselves...it's what we excel at and are designed to do. It's the entire purpose behind sniping in every game and the reward for the sheer volume of time it takes between kills. Those who tell us to stop sitting out in the middle of nowhere doing nothing don't understand this, because unlike their fellow classes...we're not performing these actions right alongside them where they can see it transpire in real time. We're not out there doing nothing, we're doing a lot more than you realize...well, we would be were it not for a single problem. The ability for nanoweave to negate the one hit kill headshot completely destroys everything that sniping is. Now, with that single feature, everything I have just listed has been voided and beyond our capabilities. Snipers who have compensated for the restrictive mechanics in Planetside 2 will now be rewarded by a headshot that doesn't kill...and a target who leaves the killzone to heal themselves of the damage or seek out a medic. The reward no longer justifies the time between kills...resulting in a complete collapse of the system and an extremely underpowered playing style. Now people might be asking themselves why is this a problem, because surely not everyone is going to use nanoweave right? Well, who are the classes that will use nanoweave more than anyone else? The very same high priority targets that we are meant to kill because they're getting killed by snipers more often, meaning we now don't perform the very role that benefits our faction. What makes this worse is that it's a unique playing style that you can not obtain with any other class, and if it vanishes...you're going to have a lot of dedicated snipers who just leave the game. We don't obtain as much enjoyment through run and gun style gameplay...that's just not the type of individuals we are. It's nice to have options, such as the SMG facet, but it's not really an option right now. It's the only choice we really have if we want to be of benefit to our faction, and that's not how the class should work or how any class should work for that matter. Furthermore, it's a style of play more geared towards running and gunning...which doesn't fill the void in a loss of being able to snipe. Everything I've just said can be summarized by simply saying that the sniping aspects of the class are completely balanced without the incorporation of nanoweave's ability to negate the one hit kill headshot. By permitting that feature, you cripple the very concept of sniping and leave it completely obsolete without the ability to perform our primary function of taking out high priority targets. Even if we choose the SMG style of gameplay, we are not performing as much of a boon to our faction that a truly adept sniper brings.
Double Post is Double. Found that we can still edit through the more options feature, and considering the length of that post...it's a good thing, holy hell!
I really wish I knew what was up with these forums lately. Can't edit, posting glitches, double posts...hell.
I don't want to say it but I think you wasted your time - some people here just can't get it. I'm also beginning to see a pattern here - it's the lazy players that can't be bothered to have to walk 300m to hunt down a sniper that's the real issue here - have you not noticed that this game is all about not bothering, high excitement, low effort activity for lazy people and "running" (not that they do any in rl) 300m is way too much time taken away from the fun! One guy wrote on these forums a few months back "I don't want to have to run 100m and waste all that time getting back into the action!" That's your typical player I'm afraid. Not too bright, seriously illogical and bad at making arguments and lazy.
Just a musing I've had on the state of OHK. Part of the issue is the mass use of NW3 and up, but I've asked myself why are we seeing more of it. Look at what the devs did to tank rounds and the massive nerf they were hit with. Before, Flak was the go to, but since tank shells were nerfed, there is really no need to have it anymore. So, now people default to NW. In the PTS notes they are trying to put more viability into flak so that might help, but if the devs wouldn't had messed with the tanks, we probably wouldn't be where we are. That would cause the player to choose what is more important, dying to a tank or a sniper...Unintended consequences.
Then allow me to explain: The statement was: "We want to give people a chance to react" Wether I shoot you from 300 meters away, or from 3 meters away, while you are at a vehicle terminal, is not relevant to this statement. You are still very dead, without having any chance to act against it whatsoever. So, to combat this, I suggest they nerf SMG's, so I cannot kill someone at a vehicle terminal with one clip. I am killing them, without them being able to react after all. The thing is tho: I try to exclusively kill people without giving them a chance to react, because if I do, I die. The entire concept of the Infiltrator is getting the jump on someone and killing them before they can react. If you look at the diffrence between my kills/minute with a Bolt Action, and my SMG's, you'll notice that when I'm using an SMG, I kill almost twice as much people within the same time frame. Not because I'm a bad sniper. (I'm a goddamn accurate sniper), but because the SMG just is that much powerful and versatile... same as every other full auto weapon in the game. So... my question is still: What makes it so terrible to get one shotted by a sniperrifle, while you get near instagibbed by pretty much everything in this game? And why is it needed to make BASR's so weak, while there's so many counters against them?
Also NW gives you a direct health boost against everything whereas flak armour is really only good for one thing. When people have certs to spare and the NW is cheap to get it seems stupid not to buy it.
Ah, so the edit problem isn't just for me. I find iE works, but firefox doesn't. You are right that the "More Options" lets you edit though. Anyhow, agree with your (long) post very strongly. I feel that sadly none of the developers are this way inclined as otherwise one of them would have fixed it by now. I very much see this game losing its sniper base.
I'm well known for my walls of text! Yeah, I'm a bit worried about that myself now... It doesn't seem as though any amongst the team are dedicated snipers, which leaves me wondering who is actually the individual behind the Infiltrator concepts. They need someone on the team that actually is a dedicated sniper, and not just within modern games...but clear back to the early days of gaming.
Everything seems to be suggesting that the infiltrator has been designed from the viewpoint of the other classes, instead of the infiltrator itself.
Which is the point I make. You can not balance sniping with the same methodology of the other classes, they're two completely different playing styles, sniping and run and gunning. The SMG style of the Infiltrator can be balanced with a hybridization between the two because that's essentially what it is...and right now, our SMG facet is done pretty well.
Friday Night Operations or something, i believe it's a stream with devs discussing things and showing gameplay and stuff.
Snipers may ..but can you balance the Infilitrator, as whole class, when compared to other classes? Playing Devil's Advocate, of course. I ask because, while tired, bells are ringing in my head. I can see how a class can be balanced against a class. A specific, arguably niche, playstyle versus an entire class tho? Also, topic aside: I read a real lack of understanding regarding game design, specifically the use of 'risk vs reward'. The basic idea seems to be understood but people are attributing it to aspects of play that formed from many smaller systems. These smaller systems would be the areas, typically - and again, I have no hard evidence that SOE even consider 'risk vs reward' tho, again, it would be highly unusual if they didn't - where things like 'risk vs reward' would be considered. Simply stating 'Oh but this aspect of play is low to no risk and gives good to great rewards' tends to demonstrate a crippling igonrance regarding the subject.
Yes... SMG is fine. Thought I was over it, but this whole topic pretty much has me pissed off all over again at how they've handeled Bolt Action rifles. The only thing missing in my rant is the fact that headshots aside, you often need more than 3 bodyshots to kill at target at medium range. I've even had instance where I'd shoot a heavy assault 5 times (one headshot included), and he was still happily running around, managing to close the distance and gib me up close. Overshields, NW5 and medkits ftw I suppose. If you manage to land each shot, your TTK is somewhere around 8 seconds atleast. 8 seconds of being completely exposed and open to enemy fire, and it does happen you miss sometimes. Needing more than 3 bullets to kill at target at range, on a Bolt Action rifle is just unacceptable. Same range, same target, but using an Assault Rifle, or LMG: TTK somewhere between 1 or 2 seconds, without having to reload. The way things are with this game currently, is that using a pump action shotgun with slug rounds, enables you to preform just as well, or perhaps better as when you'd be using a Sniperrifle. I've done it with a Light Assault. From postions where I can't get to with my Infiltrator. That's just very, very sad.... every time I shot an enemy Infiltrator this way.... I was crying inside about the insanity of it all... Perhaps I should make a vid where I show this to the masses...... titled: Who needs sniperrifles when you can snipe with a shotgun!
Gah. Tell me about it. Last night, while happily mowing through some cheeky VS who decided to steal a base, I had the displeasure of meeting a tooled up HA, with all the frills. Shot him in the chest and head, was getting ready for the third but no. Waltzes up and shot-gun-to-the-face! Ok, I'm also an idiot for not retreating. Still, I'll take my bolt action everywhere. I LOVE ME RAMS *-*
