something I didnt know is that zerkers get the exact same defensive short term buffs that guardians get http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=19157 in addition every fighter now has our defensive stance... they have a massive dps advantage and in health regen of about 120 per tick so the only defensive advantage guardians currently have over a zerker would be out 39 to stamina and + to defense buff and 500 life yes those are good buffs but.. why is it that they have some of the exact same spells we do for taking damage and yet we get nothing in return except useless dmg soaks ... I would suppose that is what sony thinks is guardians defining role? not being a tank but rather dieing all the time for taking other peoples damage... this is really disheatening.. and I know they are allowing guardians to rerole as zerkers but that will just make an excuse not to fix the guardian class.. I dont want to be a zerker I wanted to be a tank or a dps class like a ranger
our flavor is the intercepting line.. that makes us unique. It sucks but thats what makes us diferent of zerkers.. they get dps we get intercepting damage lines, assuage, sentry, sentry watch, unyielding vigilance, guardian sphere ... all of that crap.
hahah funny part is I left guardian sphere at app 1 so it would soak less damage.. and now it still gives the same proc... in other words.. taking extra damage on raids is the worst idea in history... and in groups it doesnt make a difference either heroic mobs are so weak I remember always losing agro to a warlock and him tanking the thing the whole time with no problem... so yeah get rid of this line and give us a defensive line
Plant, Guardian Sphere, Tower of Stone, Reinforcement, Hew, sta buff, hp buff, defense buff. they dont get all this. want to trade our Hew for a focus debuff?
I dont even know what hew is.. personally I just cast ca's I dont concern myself with their effects, yeah I know dps decrease or some such thing.. anyhow reinforcement is jsut a thing they get already.. the ability to hold aggro.. so that is not really accounted for... plant is ok again dps debuff.. I dont ever notice a difference but also a ca... Tower of stone is nice of course... Sphere is the only useful dmg soak spell we get due to it now procing a dmg soak for us not taking extra dmg ok so we get a sta buff, tower of stone, hp buff and defense buff thats about 800 hp and 8% avoidance and whatever tower of stone woudl add once per fight only so many times.. but they get a hp regen.. which is kinda in place of our hp buff, they get a str buff for out sta buff those are equivilant in the fact that one is offensive and one is defensive... but they share our best abilities ie defensive stance and short term mit buffs.. so basically our defining trait is 800 hp and 8% avoidance as I see it.. we trade that for dps and hate gain, and health regen
Comments like "I don't concern myself with their effects" makes for one pretty ignorant player. How can you compare to a berserker who is concerning themselves with the effects? Did you know just having effects adds more hate to the skill even? I can tell you that the effects help a berserker take less damage and hold aggro. I have no doubt the same is true for a guardian. Apples and oranges. Compare the str buff to your crush/slash/pierce buff, your HP buff to the zerker group HP regen, and your stamina to the zerker self HP regen. They're not so different now. For a berserker, DPS and hate gain are one and the same. Take away the DPS and there is very little hate gain. Guardians gain their hate differently. The health regen isn't even significant for the most part. It just offsets a little bit of the extra damage that a berserker takes. It won't help with spike damage, and in a group with a capable healer it's not even noticable. Extra health vs health regen were meant for different situations. 8% avoidance is actually quite a huge difference.
the plus to slash/crush/peirce is a useless skill.. I dont ever have problems hitting any mobs. and yes the 8% avoidance is nice as well as hp.. you say they get hate from dmg and taunts while we get ours differently? and by differently you mean taunts.. which is then basically dmg with no effect. as for the hew line yes I know I use it on every mob.. like I NOW mash all my cas now that we cant turn auto attack off anymore.. basically I have all the ones grouped htat have an effect besides dmg and they stay grayed out.. so no I manage fine... anyhow my simple point is for how similar we are in every respect gettting most of the same defensive capabilities why is it that the dps is so significantly differnt? Message Edited by JNewby on 02-20-200612:20 PM
I do when using the berserker defensive stance. They take a pretty big hit to those skills and cannot offset the penalty with self buffs. When you require DPS to hold aggro, such a disadvantage becomes quite apparent. It would be like taunts being resisted even more than they are now. You realize guardians get not only more taunts but more potent ones? Reinforcement for example not only works with autoattack melee, but combat art melee (Tremor and Goading Assault). You're not just adding AoE threat, you increase an entire hate position. No, it didn't do damage. It didn't put up big pretty numbers for everyone to see and be in awe. It is worthless as a solo skill. How does it compare in hate gain to Rampage, Open Wounds, or Insolent Gibe? They do not raise you an entire hate position. The situational usefulness of some of the guardian skills should be looked at. Quite a few are worthless while solo (sure, not everyone solo's, but the other classes do not get such a disadvantage). Rampage and Open Wounds are still useful while solo. Even the berserker version of Hold the Line is useful (has a counterattack). That's the key question. Guardians raise threat by 1 hate position and berserkers get a skill that does massive damage? Um... yeah, one went down the defensive path and one down the offensive but I think someone overlooked the usefulness of the two when considering secondary roles. Defense just doesn't appear to have the role that offense has except for extreme situations.
ok so we agree which is why guards and zerkers should not be so similar when it comes ot defensive abilityies... listen when it comes to taunts I coudl care less.. and I will tell you why while I can hold aggro now... my aggro management is horrid now if dps actually decide to do their job... now of course I do like the aggo skill we get but they are still useless so I dont consider that much of an asset.. now if they worked correctly then I would concede that arguement the problem is sony decided to up dps by about 10x but yet keep taunts the same... high dps used to be about 300 now its like 2000 and taunts got like a 100 hate increase... that is pretty weak imo
I don't see an issue here personally. So what that Bezerkers have our same buffs, they still have difficulties in other ends where Guards hold their own much better. What bothers me and this applies to all classes, Taunt resists... If they really are mental based ca's then we need/deserve a mental Debuff and a signiffgant one at that. We are not DPS, if you think we are DPS go make a Scout or Bezerker/monk/bruiser.... We are the defensive class that protects those with glass jaws . Now the taunts should not be as resistant by all. Infact the implication that there should be a taunt resist at all is stupid. If I were to say example: make fun of someones Family here I am sure you'd be pretty pissed... If they want to be creative have the tank classes try and come up with ways for creative writing on taunts. Different phrases working better for different mobs... Thats just something that bugs me other than that Guards are fine... I guess. Just learn to play your class. One other thing totally random... Does Plant (root part) work on epic mobs? I have seen events where it LOOKED like it worked but not sure would just like comfirmation. Honestly I like that whole CA the way it is, if they take the root out I'll probably never use it again.
I don't argue specifics myself since I don't pay attention to Bezerker details. I just know they tank as well as Guardians, hold agro just as well or better and have a great deal more DPS. Did I miss anything?
Of course you missed stuff. It's even been spelled out for you multiple times. You choose to ignore it. So be it.
There is a lot of wrong info in this thread. Guardians get a group hp buff. Berserkers get a group regen. Guardians get a personal stamina buff. Berserkers get a personal regen buff. Guardians get a group combat skills buff. Berserkers get a group strength buff. Guardians get a group defense buff. Berserkers get a group berserk buff (haste dps proc). I'll trade the regen buff and group berserk buff for your health and defense buffs any day...
Wrong. What I chose was to play a Guardian. That means I don't give a crap what a Bezerker has in terms of buffs and abilities. I just know my guild uses a Bezerker to raid tank about 1/3 the time and that they out DPS Guardians by a wide margian. If you want to come to the Guardian forum and 'educate' us then I think your about to brusie your face with a brick wall becasue not many here, with the possible exception of the OP, give a crap about Bezerkers. Many may be joining your ranks after the betrayal quests are opened up but then they will post on the Bezerker forums to discuss Bezerker issues becasue they give a crap about Bezerkers and that is where Bezerker crap is. The next poster wants to give up his regen buff for 100 HP sta buff (Adept 3) and a defense buff. Betray for a Guardian when they open it up. You better be ready for that to be all you can possibly do becasue that's just about as good as it gets for Guardians.
Could have fooled me that you don't care. I see a lot of class envy here rather than working to fix your own class. If they truly do not care, stop pointing fingers at the berserker class. None of the comparisons I've seen so far are objective and more or less call for nerfs. There is a guardian in the berserker forums right now asking that berserkers give up the ability to wear plate armor so that guardians can feel good about themselves. I don't view threads like this as any more helpful. When I see misinformation about the berserker class and how things are unfair due to the misinformation, you better believe I'm going to chip in. The betrayal quest isn't going to solve any of your problems. Most that betray to berserkers will still be complaining. The benefits of some of the berserker skills are being highly overrated here. Another berserker skill that's being highly overrated. The legendary handcrafted imbued chestplate will restore more health than the regen. You can also use regen potions. Just like a berserker can use stamina potions. Even though these options aren't available to your class naturally, doesn't mean they're lost entirely. If you find that more HP does not benefit you, then guess who picked the wrong class because you do not play in the situations where that is beneficial.
Exactly. They like it that way. Propaganda. They don't want actual facts here. It draws attention away from their campaign.
Misinformation through ignorance. Most of us don't care about Bezerkers. I just reply to your desire to get us to care. If we are wrong then oh well, we still don't care. The facts of tanking ability and DPS have been parsed and calculated many times. Those aren't changing except for the new expansion and AA's. I didn't read whatever else you said.
If you don't care about berserkers, stop pointing the finger at them. I don't care if you're concerned with berserkers. I haven't mentioned any berserker issues here. Just provided facts as guardians seem to keep wanting to compare. As for not reading whatever else I said, no kidding. I highly doubt you read any of it.
uux, Most of us don't envy Zerkers. We respect the class for its tanking ability, its DPS, especially in multi-mob scenarios, and it's ability to buff a group(both sustained and proc). However, we seriously do not respect anrgy posts from people attempting to encite the community. You have been on defensive mode from the top of this thread, and for no reason. No Guardian in his right mind would ever suggest Zerks need a nerf. Calm down. Guardians are your friends. Besides, nerfing you may inadvertently spill over to us, and to be honest, there's barely enough DPS and Utilty left here to even make a class. If it upsets you that Guardians compare themselves to Zerks, then dont even bother to come here. We compare ourselves to every other fighter class on this board, as well. There is a call for equality among fighters, which lends itself to each class observing how it measures up to the other members of the archtype. That is all we are doing.
I wasn't replying to all of you when I said that. A particular individual seems to overlook guardians' abilities when comparing the two. Apparently, DPS > anything. Actually, if you think I've been defensive, you're reading it in the wrong tone. I'm not upset in the least. At the top of the thread, I've simply tried to provide information. After that there may have been frustration, but rather than from bruising my face on a brick wall, it was from talking to one. I have no problem with guardians comparing themselves to berserkers. I actually find it fascinating, otherwise I would not be paying attention to your forums. I've learned a lot about guardians and their advantages/disadvantages. However, certain information is wrong, and as one of your own guardians said, it's misinformation through ignorance. Well, how do you correct ignorance? Provide information. I'm not trying to educate anyone. If anyone choses to ignore it, fine. Ignorance is bliss. However, these same people that chose to ignore the information are the ones that are continually making the comparisons. It quickly no longer becomes an objective comparison. Whether intentional or not, statements that make berserkers out to be equal to guardians in every way in addition to extra DPS, just simply call for a nerf to berserkers. SOE does not scale the classes upwards. When a Paladin's Amends line was found to gain more hate quicker than other fighters, how was it balanced? No other classes were given an increase in hate gain. It always scales downward. Another reason for providing information is for the people who do think switching to a berserker will solve their issues with the guardian class. Who knows, maybe a berserker is exactly what they were looking for. The others who still will not be satisfied will be those that after switching wonder where their 120 in combat health regen per tick is.
